Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/ TL-191

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Alternatehistoryguy47, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Whoa, whoa, wait. Fascism in TL-191 isn't formalized? I thought it was, what with Britain, France, and the Confederacy all having (or at least heavily supporting) fascist like leaders or ideologies. Can you clarify a bit?
     
  2. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    I’m basing this on information I received from the Turtledove Wiki. According to that Wiki:
     
  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Oh I see now. Well this is an interesting change-up in the fact that in TL-191, there is literally no word for the kind of ideology each of these countries have, and so they seem take on more of an extreme populist-nationalistic leaning that springs up individually of each other, yet share very similar ideologies.

    Actually I can understand why the word "fascist" itself would not appear in the vernacular at all. The word "fascist" is derived from "fascio" or "fasci" - the Italian term for "bundle of rods" that is itself taken from the latin "fasces". "Fasci" was the name given to political groups in Italy that were like guilds or syndicates. Given that Mussolini never comes to power in TL-191 and since Italy miraculously stays neutral in both wars, the word "fascist", given its Italian roots, never enters into the popular vernacular, the same as the ideology itself --- in the sense of labeling similar ideologies "fascist". Its like people would be able to recognize these similar features in these ideologies, but would not have a word that would be able to encapsulate them all into one thing.

    I guess I see it as if someone know the meaning of a word, but not know the word itself, like its on the tip of their tongue.
     
  4. Captain Reynolds Amature Sci-fi Writer

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    FAscism does exist, but just has a different name. Do we have an idea where it started first? Would it be the CSA or UK? Finding out where it began would help in figure out a name for it.
     
  5. akoslows Well-Known Member

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    I can’t find a date for when the Conservative-Silver Shirt coalition took power in the UK, but according to the information I did find, Action Francaise took power in 1931 and the Freedom Party took power in 1933.
     
  6. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Might they call it "Nationalism"?
    The word Nazi wouldn't exist either in TL-191.
     
  7. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    I believe this world's answer to fascism had it's start in the United Kingdom or France. I don't know why it would start in the CSA.
     
  8. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    That sounds right.
     
  9. mspence Well-Known Member

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    One thing I don't quite understand about the TL is that in the books Patton fights for the South, surrendering to "General Ironhewer." As he was from California, shouldn't he have been on the Northern side? Also I don't seem to see any mention of Douglas MacArthur (his counterpart appears to be Daniel MacArthur); a fight between the two of them (as Mac was originally from Arkansas) a la Patton and Rommel would have been interesting.
     
  10. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    George Patton's grandfather, George Patton Sr, was a Confederate colonel. One could assume that Patton's father never went to Los Angeles, but still gave birth to George Patton Jr to a woman who wasn't Patton's mother in OTL.
     
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  11. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    During the Second Great War, a US soldier named Curt Wheel, inspired by the successes of the barrels against the Confederates in Operation Rosebud, wrote a song about the strength of the barrels called 'Charge of the Barrels'. Unfortunately, the song never caught on with the US soldiers, not even the barrel crews. However, the German ambassador to the United States heard the song being sung in Philadelphia. He was able to obtain the lyrics of the song from one of the singers and send it to Berlin. The result was 'Panzerlied', sung by German barrel crews on the Eastern Front. The song, slightly modified from the American version, was immeasurably popular among the German Army, which led to the now common misconception that the song was written in Germany.

     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
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  12. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    It would be the fact 'Fascism' in TL-191 is not known by its board term we have in OLT. In the South, you have 'Freedomism'. In France, you have integral nationalism and fin-de-siècle. In the UK, they likely call it... 'Imperial Nationalism.'
     
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  13. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    Yes. There is no broad, overarching term for it in TL-191. Rather, it is known locally by the ideology's term itself, as you say. Freedomism/Featherstonism, fin-de-siecle, Imperial Nationalism. All of these though, if named in our timeline, would be labelled as 'fascist" ideologies.

    I suppose if you really want an overarching term with english roots though, perhaps... "Ultra-Nationalism"?
     
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  14. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    I think 'populism' could be use as an overarching term for Far-Right ideologies. (Negative speaking.) Ultra-Nationalism could also work if one try and group them all together.
     
  15. weaverj Every Man A King

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    Based on some discussion at the Other Forum. here are some European Entente Tanks

    [​IMG]
    The British Centurion Barrel

    Created in 1943 to counter the increasingly superior German Panzers, the Centurion was a Barrel with a feared reputation on the Battlefields of the Western Front. It was larger than any other Barrel on either side of the battle on Europe, had strong armor, and had a cannon which could split German Panzers in two with one blast. Unfortunately, the sad state of British Industry meant that only about 1300 were able to be produced, compared to the 5000 Panzers coming off of the German Production lines, and the lack of trade from its allies made the "Indestructible" steel of the Centurion very fragile. Despite this, the Centurion gained a mighty reputation on the battlefield among German Panzer Crews in the rare scenarios when they were encountered, and are agreed to have been ahead of its time, albeit in a case that hurt it more than helped it.

    [​IMG]
    The French Char

    The primary tank of the Actionist Regime and beloved by Charlieboos everywhere, The Char tank was mass produced and used in the Early attacks on the Rhineland and Belgium. Similar models would serve the French army during the war and become the face of the French Tank Corps during the Second Great War.​
     
  16. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    All right, so I took some time to research your concerns about the existence of the name "Fascism" and Fr. Coughlin.

    I'll deal with Coughlin first: I admit that I did not do enough research on him. Given the different circumstances that Coughlin would be experiencing in TL-191, he would probably be less of a fascist and more of a Canadian nationalist, if not an American nationalist. If he does become an American nationalist after moving to the United States, most of his ideas would be Anti-Confederate, including the Confederacy's allies. Now, whether or not he is still perceived as an Anti-Semite is a good question. He blamed the Russian Revolution on Jewish Bankers and believed that the book The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was real in OTL. If we assume that he still has this problem in TL-191, then Cardinal Pacelli could have used this opportunity to silence him for his inflammatory talks when he visited the U.S.. Or perhaps I should have left Coughlin out of my original post.

    Ideas that were similar to Fascism did exist before its "official" creation in Italy by Mussolini. I have said several times just how disappointing it was for Turtledove to ignore Italy in TL-191. I do remember watching a review of TL-191 that mentioned Italy's neutrality having an indirect effect of increasing the Central Powers chances of winning. All of those extra German and Austro-Hungarian soldiers that would have fought against Italy were now fighting somewhere else, either against France, Britain, or Russia. The word "Fascism" first appeared in 1915 by Mussolini's group, Italian Fasci of Combat in OTL. It's reasonable to conclude that, even if he never rises to power in Italy, he would still use this word to describe his group. Perhaps the word never becomes internationally known and other words may be used to describe what we know in real life to be "Fascism". Maybe in the Confederacy, it becomes known as "Confreeism/Confederate Freedomism/Featherstonism". Like Historyman 14 says, Imperial Nationalism or Mosleyism could be a phrase used by Britain. France might describe theirs as "Ultra-Royalism".

    Sources:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#World_War_I_and_its_aftermath_(1914–1929)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasci_Italiani_di_Combattimento
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
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  17. Captain Reynolds Amature Sci-fi Writer

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    I am pretty sure that the Freedom Party became a power to be wary of in the 1920s in the CSA, and while they didn't gain power, they were still a force to be reckoned with.

    However, As it has been stated before, there is good chance that there is not overarching term and will be more localized, at least for the years following the SGW. I think later that there would be a term that covers all of these that have similar aspects
     
  18. PopulistBean Libertarian I guess

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    [​IMG]
    Stan Lee born in 1922, and died in 2001
    Famous for creating many superheroes for "Blue Shirt Comics"
    the main three being: Steel Man. Daredevil, and The Bulk.
    Drafted into the American army in 1941, where he got taken out of combat
    for losing his right leg. Died at the Los Angeles attack.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  19. CapitalistHippie Peace, love, and free markets.

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    78D72B8E-65AB-492D-90F3-F83B8CA3AA5B.jpeg
    Photograph of notorious neo-Confederate and neo-Freedomite leader David Duke at a secret meeting of the Sons of Freedom, a Freedomite Confederate terrorist group. Duke would be the face of neo-Confederate terror from the 1970’s to his death in 2016 at the hands of US military forces during the Charlotte Uprising. His network was responsible for over 250 confirmed incidents of terrorism and is suspected of even more. Duke claimed credit for among other things the 1975 truck bombing of the unveiling of Congresswoman Flora Blackford’s memorial, two assassination attempts on Population Reduction survivor Satchmo Armstrong and half a dozen mail bombings of Haitian embassies and consulates in the US, Texas and Quebec. Duke also launched three large uprisings in major southern cities in New Orleans, Savannah and Charlotte, the latter of which would see him finally killed by counterinsurgency officials.
     
  20. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    Well, here's something I didn't know about!

    I could probably give some possible ideas for this, assuming that Pellagra still does become a problem in TL-191 the same way it did in OTL.:

    1) Dr. Joseph Goldberger's family moves into the Confederacy, instead of the USA, and begins his work against the disease there. The Confederate elites could be more sympathetic to his work and cooperate with him to ensure that the CSA population is healthy and ready for the next conflict against the USA. The disease is cured decades earlier.

    2) Someone else who is Confederate-born does the exact same thing that Goldberger did if his family moves to the USA, instead.

    3) Pellagra is never dealt with correctly and becomes a devastating disease, albeit a seasonal one, that is felt more by disenfranchised Blacks and poor Whites. I see the CSA army not experiencing this problem due to a comparably better diet. You can't have a good army if your soldiers keep getting sick. The disease is cured much later, similar to OTL.

    4) Similar to the third idea, Pellagra also affects the CSA military and it becomes another cause to the defeat of the CSA during the First Great War.
     
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