Photos from Featherston's Confederacy/ TL-191

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Alternatehistoryguy47, Feb 23, 2011.

  1. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    The Nullification Crisis would be a major reason why Jackson wouldn't be liked in the Confederacy
     
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  2. Gaius Julius Magnus Gone Fishin'

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    George III would likely still be seen negatively by both nations. I could see George III in the Confederacy be linked to Lincoln as a tyrant trying to enforce his rule and policies from a far off capital. Which is similair to what Confederates in OTL told themselves when they tried to connect their cause to that of the American Revolution.
     
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  3. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    ** --- Lafayette, Jones, and Arnorld will get additional perspectives, beyond the Union and Confederacy.

    Reputations of Pre-Secession (Pre-POD) American Individuals: Part 2 - More Soldiers of the Revolutionary War

    220px-Gilbert_du_Motier_Marquis_de_Lafayette.PNG

    ^^^ Gilbert du Motier, Marquis de Lafayette** --- French ---
    French aristocrat, officer, and general of the Continental Army. Believed the American Revolution was a just cause and volunteered his services there, seeking glory. Fought alongside George Washington through major campaigns. Returned to a France on the brink of revolution and took part in major events there, helping to draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man with Jefferson's assistance, and becoming commander of the National Guard. Was blamed for Louis XVI's escape and his popularity declined dramatically after the Champs de Mars Massacre. Was captured by Austrians and held prisoner until Napoleon vouched for his release.

    Union --- Despite a legendary status as one of the great generals of the American Revolution, being received with open arms on his grand tour of the United States in 1824, Lafayette's reputation suffered grievously in the aftermath of the War Secession and was very nearly destroyed in the North after the Second Mexican War... but not completely. In part due to the circumstances of the times, revaunchist scholars in the United States after the Second Mexican War heavily diminished Lafayette in their writings due to his relationship with George Washington and Jefferson. Interestingly enough his action in the French Revolution are looked upon with more nuance, though it is hardly sympathetic. Street names and buildings dedicated to him in the North were removed, with the dedications being erased or signs being replaced with "Von Steuben" instead. His reputation in the years before and after GWII have never fully recovered.

    Confederacy --- Interestingly enough, Lafayette is a rather controversial figure for both Confederate scholars and white citizens alike and his legacy has generated intense discussion on how he should be looked at. On one hand he fought alongside George Washington on many of his campaigns and was a man that Lafayette greatly admired, naming his own son after him. His relationship with Thomas Jefferson in the years after the revolution also paints Lafayette as a close and professional friend, both men aiding each other in the causes of their home countries. The one major "black stain" on Lafayette's reputation, and consequently what makes him so controversial to whites in the Confederacy, is his passionate advocation for the abolition of slavery in America, his insistence of the equality of all men, and his willing cooperation to work with black Americans. Although street names and statues were still preserved in the Confederacy even under Featherston's administration, crowds waving the Freedom Party flag would protest in front of them, threatening to remove them by force.

    African-Americans/Black Communists** --- Lafayette's career as a soldier fighting in the Continental Army is not so much important to Black Americans and Communists; his political and social actions are. While it is unclear when Lafayette became convinced of the emancipation of slaves in the US, his character and actions greatly suggest that he was a man willing to act on his beliefs. Frederick Douglass himself called Lafayette a true abolitionist and an advocate for radical equality among men and his work with black spy James Armistead, (later named "James Armistead Lafayette") is looked upon with great interest. His work on helping to draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man, wherein he insisted on all men are equal, are lauded among educated Blacks. While communists the world over do not think that much of Lafayette, he enjoyed a rather interesting niche reputation among the Black communists in the south as one of the few whites that were actively willing to help free blacks. Guerrillas and refugees in the south that escaped the aftermath of the Red Rebellions of 1915 and the Population Reductions of 1941-1944 gave themselves surnames as a mark of their freedom - "Lafayette" was recorded to be one of the most popular.

    France** --- Lafayette has been consistently looked upon in a nuanced light in France for many years. Even under the Monarchist Restoration era of Charles XI beginning 1931 his reputation among the French people has largely remained the same, primarily because of his actions during the French Revolution and his actions during the turbulent political years after Napoleon Bonaparte's permanent exile.

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    john-paul-jones-9357409-1-402.jpg

    ^^^ John Paul Jones** --- Scottish ---
    Sailor, captain, and one of the "founding fathers" of the United States Navy. Becoming a sailor at age 13, Jonh Paul can be described as a man for the sea. Although Scottish by birth, he adopted the United States as his "beloved" home country. After a turbulent career in the merchant navy that saw him flee to the United States after killing a man with his sword, he took up a captain's position in the new Continental Navy. He raided both the English and Irish coasts from his base in France, taking many prizes earning notoriety for being a pirate. After the Revolution he signed up with the Russian Imperial Navy, fighting Ottomans in the Black Sea and retiring, with Russian pension, as a rear admiral.

    Union --- John Paul Jones is something of a "bad boy" to US scholars in the aftermath of the Second Mexican War, sometimes looked upon as controversial and sometimes looked upon as a wily rapscallion. While he sometimes shares the sobriquet of "Father of the United States Navy" with John Adams, he is more popularly labelled as its "champion". In an age where the United States suffered numerous disasters at sea due to British dominance of the waves, John Paul Jones was the one exception Americans could look to as a defiant example that Britain's mastery of the seas could still be challenged. His actions during the Revolution, especially his fight with the Serapis on board the Bonhomme Richard, are lionized by US citizens and in particular by the US Navy, hungry for a chance to rebuild its reputation and to build up its fleet size to compete with the British. Jones' apocryphal and defiant words of "I have not yet begun to fight!", were taken to heart by the US Navy as a rallying cry to rebuild its strength and fight the British once again - it was a saying that cropped up numerous times in propaganda poster during GWI. In the Inter-War years, efforts to exhume and recover John Paul Jones' body in France were met with failure that, at one point, caused a small international incident with the United States and France. After GWII and with Paris all but annihilated by atomic weaponry, recovering Jones' remains among radioactive ruins would prove impossible.

    Confederacy --- Scholars, officials, and citizens have over time shared Britain's sentiment of viewing John Paul Jones as being nothing but a vile pirate. He is however, something of an afterthought by Confederates in general and is not paid any attention to since his impact on history for the South is largely irrelevant.

    Great Britain** --- Surprisingly, John Paul Jones is a rather vilified American, even by Confederate standards of vilifying certain Yankee founding fathers. As a man who sewed fear and panic along the northern English coasts, even going so far as to raid and pillage is native Scotland and especially Mother England from bases in France, John Paul Jones has received international notoriety as a pirate. Propaganda posters, films, political cartoons and the like, from the Second Mexican War to the Second Great War, have consistently portrayed him as a reprehensible villain and one synonymous for piracy and savagery in England. British sailors even into GWII have consistently mocked and joked about the US Navy using Jones as a punchline and politicians at home, fearing American naval raids and blockades, have made references to Jones in the most negative way possible.

    France** --- John Paul Jones was something of a sore-spot to talk about in diplomatic circles before GWI and before GWII. As an open ally to the American cause for Independence in the 18th Century, in the aftermath of the War of Secession, Napoleon III's successful intervention in Mexico, and the Second Mexican War, France made efforts to distance itself from its past dealings with America for fear of antagonizing the British as part of their games of empire around the world. It was known fact, however, that Jones was buried somewhere in Paris and in 1905 American efforts were made to recover the remains for reburial, leading to a international and diplomatic incident involving Great Britain, France, the Confederacy, and the United States. With the ruins of Paris irradiated in the aftermath of the atomic strike on the city, any effort to recover the body is impossible.

    Russia** --- Imperial Russia looked upon John Paul Jones with embarrassment. Catherine the Great herself viewed Jones in high regard when he entered service with Russia, but in the hundred years since his career in the Russian Navy is viewed with distain. Despite fighting well enough against the Ottomans in the Black Sea, his habit making enemies among allies forced him to be removed from command. On top of that his reportedly dubious behavior as both a drunk and horny lecher sank his reputation with Russian scholars and record keepers. Although not as vilified as he is in Great Britain to the point of exploiting him for propaganda purposes, John Paul Jones is someone that officials in Imperial Russia would rather forget about.

    Ottoman Empire** --- Despite a record fighting against the Ottomans in the Black Sea, hardly any record exists that talks about John Paul Jones in great detail. He is virtually irrelevant to the Ottomans.

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    Benedict Arnold.jpg

    ^^^ Benedict Arnold** --- American --- Continental Army general that fought with great distinction in the American Revolution before his defection in 1780. Was one of George Washington's most trusted generals before his defection. Distinguished himself at Ticonderoga and Saratoga. Sought employment with other companies and commissions in the British Army, but was unsuccessful. Settled in Canada where his descendants now live.

    Union --- Just as he was vilified in his time, so too was he vilified in the United States after the War of Secession. Benjamin Franklin compared him with Judas and said, "Judas sold one man, Arnold sold three million". Even before the the War of Secession, when the idea of seceding from the Union finally took root, politicians likened southerners to Benedict Arnold, calling Confederates, "men taking part in a colossal treason, by whose side Benedict Arnold shines white as a saint". He would remain a man synonymous with treason in the America for as long as the country would last.

    Confederacy --- Surprisingly enough, Benedict Arnold is a man that both US citizens and Confederate citizens hold in very low regard. He too is a man synonymous with treason, though not as extremely demonized as he is in the North. Southerners would balk at being put into same category as a man that betrayed the great George Washington, a man that the general himself held in high regard before his betrayal, a man that the general order to be hanged summarily if captured alive. Featherston was even noted to have commented on Arnold in the later years of GWII, when he suspected people in his administration to be plotting against him, "I have people with me that have hearts as black as Arnold's, hearts as black as a nigger's skin".

    Canada** --- Benedict Arnold is looked upon as a notable yet minor figure in their history, one of the many thousands of loyalists that fled to Canada in the aftermath of the American Revolution. It was here that he was able to make a new life, where his descendants were able to live as well.

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    @cortz#9 @Allochronian --- Here are more of these! Apologies of Arnold's seems a bit lean.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  4. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    @Alterwright great work again!

    Here's my own. I got a lot, but here's the first five so it won't be too much.

    Lewis and Clark. (Two for one, loop hole.)

    Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox.

    Lord Dunmore.

    William Wilberforce.

    Washington Irving.
     
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  5. Gaius Julius Magnus Gone Fishin'

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    After the Second Great War and the fall of the Confederacy, I could see Lincoln being rehabilitated to a degree. Not to the extent to be seen as a great President like in OTL but probably more like a 19th century Jimmy Carter (at least by those in North) A well-meaning man who was simply out of his depth in leading the nation during a crisis like the War of Secession.
     
  6. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

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    There's a older post about just that.

     
  7. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    The Execution of Jefferson Pinkard

    [​IMG]

    Mugshot of Jefferson Pinkard after suffering from malnutrition, 1944


    Setting: Huntsville, Second Republic of Texas, Huntsville Unit, 70 miles north of Houston, Second Republic of Texas, January 6th--January 13th, 1945

     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  8. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    ** --- Means they get more than one view besides the Union and the Confederates.

    Reputations of Pre-Secession (Pre-POD) Individuals: Part 3 - Monarchs during the American War of Independence

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    ^^^ George III --- English --- Ruler of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Elector of Hanover, from 1760 until his death in 1820.
    He was one of the longest reigning monarchs in British history, beaten only by Queen Victoria. His reign as king was marked by numerous wars in Europe, the Americas, Africa, and Asia, from the Seven Years War, The American Revolutionary War, the French Revolutionary Wars, and finally the Napoleonic Wars. Britain became a world power during his time despite losing the American Colonies, going on to conquer more of India, to defeat Napoleon, and to experience the start of both the Agricultural and Industrial Revolutions. Toward the end of his life, after slowly suffering from severe bouts of madness, he permanently slipped into that mental state and withered away until his death in 1820.

    Union --- In the United States, even after the War of Secession, King George III was still looked upon by US citizens as a tyrant incapable of understanding the grievances of an independent-minded people thousands of miles away in his castle in the British Isles. His eventual slip into a permanent state of madness is played up in US history books as a result of him being unable to cope with the loss of the American Colonies. Indeed, US scholars and citizens after the Second Mexican War and just before the Great War could look upon the American Revolution as "The War that Broke King George". US soldiers joked after the Great War of whether or not the current monarch in Britain also went "Mad like George" after losing Canada and Caribbean to the United States.

    Confederacy --- King George III is looked upon with some complication in the Confederacy. On one hand many Confederates share the sentiment that independence from Great Britain was inevitable and entirely justifiable. On the other, in light of the Confederacy's very close and special alliance with Great Britain, it was deemed prudent and necessary to not paint the British in a bad light. By extension this meant that King George III was looked upon in a rather nuanced yet respectable way. While the tale of American colonists breaking away from an overbearing and unfair form of governance is still taught in schools as way to parallel the Confederacy's eventual break away from the US Federal Government under Lincoln, George is portrayed as a monarch performing his duty and merely defending the right of an elected British Parliament to levy taxes, rather than seeking to expand his own power. In turn the colonists, especially any southern politicians, are portrayed in a rather gentlemanly fashion as firmly yet respectfully expressing their grievances for being taxed unfairly and requesting that they be allowed to govern their own affairs as an independent nation. George's slip into madness, while talked about, is not openly mocked or taken advantage of for propaganda purposes. It is viewed with nuance as a result of the pressures of ruling during a very turbulent time in world history.

    Great Britain** --- It is likely that the Confederacy's views on King George III are highly influenced by Great Britain's views about its own king. Over the years George's reputation has run the gauntlet of praise, ridicule, sympathy, and indifference, with scholars tending to frame their views on him from the interpretations of his actions during his life. As a result, like so many British monarchs, he is looked upon in a rather balanced light, but even during his time, when he slipped into madness, he garnered both support and distain. Records based on his personal letters and correspondence, essentially a wealth of invaluable historical records detailing his life in his own writing, were tragically destroyed when London was annihilated by atomic weaponry.

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    louis-xvi.jpg

    ^^^ Louis XVI --- French --- Bourbon King of France from 1774 until his execution in 1792, referred to as Citizen Louis Capet in the months before his death. When he took power in 1774 he attempted to reform his government. Heavy bureaucracy and corruption had resulted in poor management of French finances over the years and despite attempts to reform these Louis was met with open hostility by the nobility and clergy, who successfully blocked his attempts. Efforts to deregulate the grain market also led to failure which led to food scarcity in France for the lower and middle classes. His support for and funding of the American Patriots in their war for independence from Britain further pushed France into financial debt. Despite Louis' efforts his indecisiveness, lack of firmness, and conservatism in some areas for governance led to the people believing he represented everything wrong with absolutism in France. After the Fall of the Bastille and his Flight to Varennes his popularity continue to plummet among his people as France was gripped in revolution. He was executed for in 1792, ending nearly a thousand years of monarchical rule in France and ushering in one of the bloodiest stages of the French Revolution.

    Union --- Even during Louis' time his death, and by a larger extension the French Revolution, was an intensely debated subject in the United States. Federalists such as Hamilton and Adams feared the growing unrest and radicalization of the revolutionaries in France, worried that their example and victories in Europe would cause upheavals at home. The advocated for stability and trade as a neutral party. Public support was with the French revolutionaries and attempts by Edmund-Charles Genet, the Minister for the United States, to use American ports to commission privateers to fight for France against Great Britain were exposed, resulting in him being sent back to France and a treaty to be signed with Great Britain to remain neutral in the conflict in Europe. Louis' death in 1792 was an ill omen as France's radicalization reached fever pitch and leaders around Europe took steps to clamp down democratic French ideas. For Federalists such as John Adams his presidency was marked by the Quasi War with France and the creation of the US Navy to preserve US trade and travel on the high seas. In the years after the War of Secession, with the First Mormon Revolt and the rise of the Remembrance Movement, the memory of Louis was seen as something of a cautionary tale in the United States, a tale of the dangers of rebellion, indecisiveness, and infirmness. And the United States drew its own lessons from the ever complex and ever enduring legacy of the French Revolution. Paradoxically the US drifted further way from its democratic ideals as the rest of the world seem to embrace them over the years. A need for strong and firm leadership in the face of adversity, backed up by strong military forces, was coveted above all. Louis' decisions and example would be the nagging little thought every US leaders' mind, of the consequence of weakness in the face of more rebellion and revolution. The thinking was this --- they had lost the South, and they had lost land and prestige in the process, with enemies on all sides; they would not lose again, or risk annihilation.

    Confederacy --- Even during Louis' time his death, and by extension the circumstances of the French Revolution, was an intensely debated subject in the United States. It polarized the American public to such a degree that the first political parties were formed, allowing individuals such as Hamilton, Adams, and Jefferson to organize their ideas advocate in favor for them with support from like minded people. Jefferson and anti-Federalists favored supporting France in its Revolution and public support for France seemed to reflect that. Jefferson himself, while Minister of France, closely worked with and advised Lafayette as the latter helped to draft the Declaration of the Rights of Man. Jefferson's support of France and by extension is beliefs in in republicanism persisted even into France's Reign of Terror, with him stating "To back away from France is to back away from the cause of republicanism in America". Jeffersons career during this time, along with his intense rivalry with John Adams, is looked upon with intense interest by Confederates. As a result, his views and support for the Revolution in France, as well as the lessons he would take away from them, seeped into the Confederacy over the years. Louis himself was not looked upon as a tyrant, but as a king out of his depth and incapable of the task before him that suffered a terrible fate at the hands of his own people. Confederate leaders and citizens would draw their own lessons from the ever complex and ever enduring French Revolution and of the death of the Louis XVI. Like the United States they would draw lessons in leadership during times of crisis, but it was the complicated legacy of the French Revolution that would endure in Confederacy and what that meant for its government, its people, and its future moving forward. In a way, even after the War of Secession, it was a subject of debate and comparisons to the Revolution in France with events in the Confederacy over its history affected the public's perception on whether those events were good or bad. Memories of the ever volatile food market in the Confederacy during the War of Secession drew parallels to the French Revolution, where the price of bread was high and food grew scarce. In times of peace the ideals of freedom and republicanism, as well as freedom from ever present tyrants, was expounded upon. Again, during the Red Rebellions of 1915 the fear of a "black" Reign of Terror in the Confederacy should the Reds win prompted some Confederate officials to clamp down hard, with some fear their heads would roll just like Louis XVI. Even during the Freedom Party's rise to power allusions to the French Revolution were drawn. In a sense the French Revolution and Louis XVI continued to be viewed with nuance in the Confederacy until its very end in 1944.

    France** --- In Louis' time the circumstances around his execution was a hotly debated issue and the final decision to execute him was agreed upon only by a very slim margin. Many in France at the time feared what precedence it would set if a king could be executed by his own people. To some, that precedence set the stage for the Reign of Terror and the bloodshed from executions that was to follow. To scholars in France during the Monarchical Restoration of 1931 with Charles XI ascending to the throne, Louis was looked upon in a much more sympathetic light. To them a lack of compassion at that moment contributed to a radicalization of revolutionary violence and to greater divisiveness among Frenchmen, an execution that signaled the end of the role of God in history. Despite failed efforts in 1820 to have Louis XVI canonized another memorandum was proposed during Charles' reign to have Louis canonized as a saint by the Catholic Church. The Pope at the time, however, declared it an impossibility by proving that Louis had been executed for political reasons rather than religious ones.

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    Carlos%20III.jpg

    ^^^ Charles III --- Spanish --- Previously the Duke of Parma in 1731 as Charles I, the King of Naples as Charles VII in 1734, and the King of Sicily as Charles V in 1735, he became King of Spain in 1759 until his death in 1788. He was an enlightened monarch and was a major proponent of the sciences and academic research. He also modernized agriculture in Spain, facilitated trade, and promoted reforms in his government to decrease the influence of the Catholic Church. He was a seasoned leader with experience in ruling several kingdoms and was tested battlefield commander from campaigns in Italy. He oversaw Spain's participation in the American War of Independence by siding with the Patriots due to a rivalry with the British in the Caribbean, capturing of Nassau in the Bahamas, West Florida, and Menorca in the Mediterranean.

    Union --- To the majority of the United States public, Charles III is virtually unknown to them and would seem irrelevant. Despite his country's role in the Revolutionary war as a co-beligerent, Spain's participation in the war, and consequently Charles' reasons for siding with the Patriots, is not taught in classrooms. It would take a scholar or university student studying history to ascertain this monarch's role in the Independence of the United States.

    Confederacy --- Confederate citizens in Florida and Cuba are taught at a young age the history of their states and as result Charles III's role in the American Revolution is most prominent in these region of the Confederacy. He is given a fairly balanced and nuanced look and his country's rivalry with Great Britain at the time is taught in depth so that students can understand the king's reason for capturing the state, largely as just another part of the never-ending game of politics and war between the European Powers. In Confederate Cuban classrooms Spanish rule is further expanded upon with Havana's capture in 1762 by the British, an event that took part under Charles' reign as part of the Seven Years War, largely as a way to demonstrate Spain's weakening grasp in the Americas and to compare the oppressive Spanish rule with the more beneficial Confederate statehood that occurred in the 1870s. Outside of these regions however, Charles is almost as unknown to Confederates as the Yankees are to him.

    Spain** --- Under Charles III, Spain began to be recognized as a united nation rather than a collection of separate kingdoms ruled by a common monarch. He declared the "Marcha Real" as the national anthem of Spain, created the colors and general design of the current flag of Spain, and built up Madrid to such an extent as to be worthy of the title of a capital city, with new road systems that connected the city to the rest of the country. He was, in many regards, considered a capable and able king.

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    @cortz#9 @Allochronian @Historyman 14 --- Here you go! The monarchs! I won't lie, Louis XVI's reputation was difficult to interpret and I found now way to talk about him without talking about the French Revolution, which is in itself still a complicated topic. Here it is though!
     
  9. rob2001 Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't that be the Republic of Texas, instead of the State of Texas?
     
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  10. cortz#9 Obrltnt of Kampfgruppe Seelöw

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    Nice work Alterwright, I'll go over these post again when considering names for new TL-191 designs in the future. If they're are any names here you think would go well with some of my unnamed designs, let me know and I'll go back and edit them in.
     
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  11. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I meant it to refer to STATE as its own COUNTRY, but I suppose I can make it more specific.

    Fixed it.
     
  12. Allochronian Well-Known Member

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    I loved your explanations about George III and Charles III!

    Now, I knew that Louis XVI and his connection to the French Revolution would be more complicated to write about in a Reputation Report, but with the exception of France's view of him, I didn't completely understand what the general view of the Union and Confederacy was in what you wrote.

    From what I could understand:
    • The Union feels pity towards Louis XVI and use his as an example of what could happen when mob rule is in control. Does the Union feel sympathy to Louis XVI? Is there even a positive view of him, out of all other French individuals?
    • The Confederacy feels pity towards Louis XVI and use him as an example what could happen when a ruler is incompetent and tragically deserves to be deposed by the righteous will of the people. Would the Confederacy not feel sympathy towards Louis XVI? Is there even a general negative view of him?
    Am I right in my assessment? Or wrong?
     
  13. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    On the 100th anniversary of the beginning of the American occupation of Canada which officially ended in 1949, Canadians burn the American flag in protest of the US's continued occupation of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island (or President Roosevelt Island, according to the Americans).

    [​IMG]



    On the same anniversary, Canadian soldiers participate in a ceremony remembering those who were killed during the American occupation.


    [​IMG]


    The current Canadian flag. After the end of the occupation, the Blue Ensign was changed to red to honour those who gave their lives for Canadian freedom under the occupation. The flag includes the emblems of all of Canada's provinces, even those under American occupation. It is illegal under US law to possess this flag in the occupied Canadian territories.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
  14. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @Allochronian

    Thank you, I appreciate that. The monarchs were a lot of fun to do actually. I briefly considered doing William V, Prince of Orange, the "stadtholder" of Holland but decided not to do it. He was a leader during the revolution and his country did go to war with England because of the revolution, but again I decided not to since his role seems to be largely negligible at best.

    Right, I could have been more clear with Louis XVI I think. It was easy enough to find out about how countries felt about the French Revolution, but it was hard to find out about how people felt about the man himself.

    I believe in retrospect, given the changes in TL-191, Louis XVI would be viewed with negativity, but largely with indifference in the United States, very little sympathy due to him being a Frenchmen, but he would not be demonized. There would be a greater focus on his incompetence and inability to rule firmly as a monarch and his death would be an example for what would be in store if rebellion and mob rule were to take hold in a country - hence the US's heavy handed crack downs in Canada, Utah, and the southern states.

    The Confederacy would view Louis XVI more sympathetically. They would agree that he was a man unfit to rule and was rightly taken away from power by the will of the people, but I believe they would not agree with killing him. In fact they may share some of Monarchist France's sympathy in looking upon Louis as a tragic figure of sorts, but they would absolutely not go as far as to try and make him a saint. His efforts at trying to reform things would be looked into, but ultimately be seen as futile - the rot in the Ancien Regime being too great to cure. The Confederacy's leaders may look upon his death as something to avoid - especially when memories of the Red Rebellions still haunt them.

    I hope that clears things up. It may not fall in line with what some may think, but I believe I gave it some good consideration. You are free to draw your own conclusions of course!
     
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  15. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

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    @cortz#9 @Allochronian @Historyman 14 --- More! This time on African Americans of the Revolution!

    Reputations of Pre-Secession (Pre-POD) Individuals: Part 4 - African Americans of the American War of Independence, Part 1

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    ^^^ Crispus Attucks --- C. 1723-1770 --- Of African and Native-American descent, his ethnicity is a topic of much debate, since he was described as being African, Indian, and Mulatto. Sources differ on whether he was a freedman or an escaped slave, with some records indicating a man with the same first name having ran away from his master in Massachusetts, with a reward for his capture. What is known was that he worked as a sailor and a longshoreman, spending most of his life at sea and traveling the eastern seaboard as far south as the Bahamas. As one of the many waterfront men in Boston that were organized into groups by Patriots in defiance of British troops garrisoned in Boston, Crispus Attuck was part of the crowd that was fired on in the Boston Massacre. Witnesses say he led a crowd to the Customs House on King Street, daring the soldiers there to fire back on the crowd, throwing objects at them. He is considered to be the first man to die in the crowd and by extension the first man to die in the American War of Independence.

    Union --- During the trial in which John Adams successfully defended the British soldiers charged with firing on the crowd (a fact that Revaunchist scholars have tried to play down with little success), he charged Attucks with having "undertaken to be the hero of the night, having precipitated a conflict by his mad behavior." In the years just before the outbreak of the War of Secession, abolitionists in the North advocating for the freedom of slaves lauded Crispus Attucks as a hero of the Revolution and of the United States. With the United States defeat in the war the cause for abolition waned, but the fight to keep Crispus Attucks' legacy alive did not in the state of Massachusetts nor in Boston. Old school abolitionists and freed blacks in New England doggedly attempted to keep the histories of Black-Americans alive in the face of growing Pro-German revaunchism in the aftermath of the Second Mexican War. Boston schools still tell the stories of the Boston Massacre and Crispus' role in the event and he was still considered a hero in his local area well into the Great Wars years. Outside of the New England area however his legacy too much longer to sink in and it wasn't until after GWII that his story began to be widely told.

    Confederacy --- In the south, when the story of Crispus Attucks is talked about is mocked and diminished, especially in regards to John Adams' testimony of Crispus during the Boston Massacre as way to humiliate the North's own legacy and history. More eloquent Confederate scholars attempt to point out that Crispus was more Native-American than he was black and that he was nothing more than a hooligan, a thug, and a rabble rouser out for "white blood" that deserved his fate. Indeed, his story and death as a rabble rouser and troublemaker is something that Confederates especially during Featherston's Administration would try to spin, in a way helping justify Featherston's own beliefs in seeing Blacks completely eradicated.

    -----


    5144-004-E82AA427.jpg

    ^^^ Phillis Wheatley --- 1753-1784 --- Enslaved at a young age, likely taken from Gambia or Senegal, Phillis Wheatley was named after the ship she was transported on and given the surname of her master's family. The Wheatleys were a wealthy and influential family in Boston and Phillis was originally given to Mrs. Wheatley to be her servant. She was given a very good education, which was unprecedented for a slave and woman in her time, learning to read Greek and Latin classics as well as passages from the Bible. Recognizing her talent as a writer, reader, and poet, her masters allowed her to pursue her talents. She was able to meet quite few powerful British individuals and many people from her time, including George Washington, praised her work. Thomas Paine, author of "Common Sense", republished a poem she had sent to George Washington in the Pennsylvania Gazette. She was emancipated after publishing her book of poems and writings and eventually married a freedman. Unfortunately she died at age 31, with her husband imprisoned for debt and her being left impoverished, having lost three children to sickness.

    Union --- Her legacy, like that of so many notable African-Americans before the War of Secession, struggled to stay relevant in United States society, persevering over the years and doggedly kept alive by those that would remember her. That she received praise for her work by so many influential and notable individuals like Voltaire and even the Confederate idol George Washington was proof to abolitionists that Blacks in America could rise to such prominence, contributing to the story and progress of the United States. Her memory in Massachusetts remained strong, especially in her native Boston, where local teachers continued to tell her story in classrooms, sharing a curriculum that advocated intense hatred for the Confederates and British through focused studies in history. Her poems were also read in English classes along side Imperial German poets translated to English for immigrant German children. Her work was still published in Massachusetts by pro-black publishers and printers. Interestingly enough Socialists and Communists in the United States also took an interest in her work.

    Confederacy --- Any records of Phillis' works and poems, if found, were discarded and burned in the Confederacy in the years between the Second Mexican War and the Great War, where intense Confederate nationalism grew substantially. Any mention of George Washington praising her work or receiving her as a guest to read her poems is unacknowledged and struck from the records. During Featherston's Administration as part of his Population Reduction program any and all Black publications, as well as documents relating to communism and socialism, were to be destroyed. Phillis Wheatley's poems, surprisingly enough, was one of the few persistent pieces of literature found on black guerrilla fighters in the Confederacy. It was discovered after the war that her poems were smuggled into the south by the few socialists willing to take the risk, being used to help illiterate blacks who escaped population reduction to read and write.

    -----

    220px-Peter_Salem.jpg

    ^^^ Peter Salem --- 1750-1816 --- Born to a slave mother in Massachusetts, his early life and the occupation of his parents are largely unknown. Consequently being a slave himself he was sold by army captain Jeremiah Belknap to army Major Buckminster in 1775. With hostilities between the British and the New England colonists imminent, a call for militia was sent out and able bodied men for a coming fight were needed. Since African Americans were banned in Massachusetts from bearing arms and joining the military in 1656 for fear of slave revolts, the Committee of Safety allowed for freed African Americans to join the militia and army. Salem's master, once again called to service as a major in militia, emancipated Salem the same year he bought him, allowing him to serve in a militia company. At the age of 25, he was one of the few black Minutemen taking an active part in the very first battles of the Revolution, fighting at the Battles of Lexington and Concord in April. In June that same year Salem was once again on the front lines at the Battle of Bunker Hill, being the man supposedly responsible for killing Major John Pitcairn of the Royal Marines, who led the advance party into Lexington and Concord earlier in April. Salem was one of a dozen or so freed black men present at the Battle of Bunker Hill. Salem would go on to enlist for more consecutive years with various Continental and State Regiments, fighting at the Battles of Saratoga and Stony Point. He died in 1816 at age 66, having survived the war a freed man.

    Union --- Peter Salem's story, as well as the stories of many other fighting black men of the Revolutionary War, was one that abolitionists in the North pointed to as proof of the fighting resolve of black men, championing the idea that blacks could enter service with the Army as a way to fight for their freedom and for the freedom of their enslaved brothers and sisters in the south. The crushing end to War of Secession severely dampened hopes of blacks officially serving with the United States Army, but the idea and its advocates persisted over the decades, making slow progress as black recruits trickled in over the years to garrison forts and outposts in the western territories, in Occupied Canada, and in Utah. Being a part of Massachusetts local history Peter Salem entered into the text books of students in the state, with teachers recognizing him and other black soldiers for their bravery and determination for helping in the cause of independence. In the years just before the Great War, this was considered rather progressive in terms of education, but the dogged determination of pro-black supporters in the North ensured that Salem's legacy would not be forgotten. His actions at Bunker Hill are said to be of particular interest, with scholars debating over whether he was truly the man responsible for killing the British officer that supposedly gave the order for minutemen to disperse on the Lexington Green. He was read about along side German soldier-heroes from the Franco-Prussian War in Massachusetts in classes where German speaking children learned English in the years before the Great War.

    Confederacy --- Peter Salem's legacy proved an interesting one in the South. Like all records of Black Americans that were of some prominence pre-secession, his was erased from Confederate memory and he is largely unheard of by white Confederates. However, in the years since secession and especially during the 20th Century, when the Great War, Red Rebellions, and Second Great War, wracked the North American continent, Confederate soldiers that managed to take black guerrillas as prisoners noted a peculiar practice among them --- surnames. Among some of the most numerous surnames recorded were Attucks, Lafayette, and Salem, to name a few. To Confederates whites it is unknown how they came up with these surnames, but the reading material found on them seems suggest they took the name of Salem from the smuggled history books they read, with publication stamps from Massachusetts.
     
  16. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    All through the history of the Confederacy, there was a secret minority of people that some Confederates hated more than Negroes. Mullatoes. The Confederacy had always had laws against miscegnation. But no one thought of what would happen to the products of these unions.

    Neither fully black nor fully white, these people lived in between the lines of Confederate race laws. In the early years of the Confederacy, there were mullato slaves. But when slavery was outlawed after the Second Mexican War, a legal quandary was created. In the years before the Great War, some states in the Confederacy created exceptions to the notorious passbook laws for those who could prove that they were not fully black. However, the laws were so poorly written that fully black Negroes began abusing this law by claiming they had white ancestry, so the laws were quickly reversed. The Confederate Congress had a Mullato Citizenship Act bill slated for debate in 1914, but this never took place because on the date it was supposed to be debated, Woodrow Wilson declared war on the United States.

    Some mullatoes took part in the Red Rebellion during the Great War, claiming that Negroes treated them with more respect than the whites. Of course, this did little to help their cause. if anything, it made things worse. Now, they were considered traitors to the Confederate States by radical fringe groups for simply existing. The Whigs, however, decided to give Mullatoes the right to vote and even gave them citizenship.

    However, this changed with the rise of the Freedom Party. After the abolishment of the Supreme Court in 1935, the Party began tearing apart any legislation that gave Mullatoes civil and legal rights. THey were considered a blight on the face of the Confederacy. When the Population Reduction began, they were targeted in earnest. Guards at Camp Determination allegedly treated them worse than they did the fully black prisoners. By the end of the Reduction in 1944, the mullato minority of the Confederate States was near the precipice of annihilation.




    [​IMG]



    A mixed race family of slaves in the Confederacy during the War of Secession.


    [​IMG]


    'Mullato' slaves in the Confederate States, circa 1870s. Their names were 'Charlotte', 'Mary' and 'Anna'. Their owner believed that since they were part white, they had the right to 'white names'.



    [​IMG]

    The Stows were a mixed-race family living in the Confederacy in the 1930s. They escaped the Population Reduction by smuggling themselves into the United States. The mother, though she was 1/2 black, was able to sway the US border guards into allowing them into the country.
     
  17. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Location:
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    @Alterwright. YES.

    I love them both. I really find it interesting the Cuban Confederate and Floridian views of Charles III, as well as the South's more respectful views towards George III. "The War that Broke King George" always get a good laugh out of me now. But the allusions to Louis XIV is by far the most interesting for both North and South.

    As for African Americans, really great work. I really like how they basically become 'forefathers of African Americans' at least in Massachusetts. (It and Pennsylvania being the homeland of Free Blacks.) Same for Salem being another Salem being a surnames for blacks in the South. (And even Germans reading about him up to Great War 1 and being put alongside German soldier-heroes from the Franco-Prussian War.)
     
  18. Alterwright "You were never even a player."

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2018
    Location:
    California, USA
    Thank you, I appreciate that.

    Yeah the kings were a lot of fun to do. Louis XVI was bit tricky, but after some clarification I believe the main impressions that both sides would away from him was his effectiveness as a leader and whether or not he was worthy of a bit of sympathy. I believe the United States would view him negatively like King George III and take away their owns lessons from his death. The South would by more sympathetic and draw own conclusions as well. In general though I believe George III and Charles III would be talked about more in the South and with a surprisingly more balance scholarly view. Pretty much the United States would view the monarchs the same way we do today, but to a much more hostile and negative extent - hence the "War That Broke King George" bit. Maybe a song should be written about that.

    After a bit of discussion, I now believe that while the cause for black equality and freedom in North American would severely set back in TL-191, it is by no means abandoned, with some places hanging on doggedly preserve history. I imagine that certain states within the United States would be more tolerable of blacks and other minorities to an appropriate historical degree. This would allow for the histories of Black Americans to at least be recounted on a smaller, yet perhaps intense scale. That's why I chose African-Americans from Massachusetts' history, since they seem to have had a very noticeable impact on the course of events at least for the state.

    I personally like the idea of these Black Americans' legacies living on in the south as part of a "freed underground" society that smuggles in stories and poems. So while socialists and reds learned about Marx and Lincoln, they can also read up and educated themselves about the real folk heroes that, from the beginning of the Nation's founding, were fighting for their own freedom.
     
  19. Allochronian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Location:
    originaltimeline
    Fan List of U.S. Presidents
    *Note: This is just my version of what presidents could have existed in TL-191. I borrowed ideas from Dutch _Atlantic_13 and someone else whose username I forgot. The names go from Abraham Lincoln to our current year as I post this. Feel free to disagree, propose different names, and post any other comments on this list.

    Presidents #1-#15 are the same as in OTL.


    16. Abraham Lincoln (R), [March 4,1861-March 4, 1865]

    17. Horatio Seymour (D), [March 4, 1865-March 4, 1869]

    18) George H. Pendleton (D), [March 4, 1869-March 4, 1873]

    19) Benjamin G. Brown (D), [March 4, 1873-March 4, 1877]

    20) Samuel J. Tilden (D), [March 4, 1877-March 4, 1881]

    21) James G. Blaine (R), [March 4, 1881-March 4, 1885]

    22) Winfield Scott Hancock (D), March 4, 1885-February 9, 1886]

    23) Allen Thurman (D), [February 9, 1886-March 4, 1889]

    24) Thomas Brackett Reed (D), [March 4, 1889-March 4, 1897]

    25) Alfred Thayer Mahan (D), [March 4, 1897-March 4, 1905]

    26) Henry Cabot Lodge (D), [March 4, 1905-March 4, 1913]

    27) Theodore Roosevelt (D), [March 4, 1913-January 6, 1919]

    28) Walter McKenna (D), [January 6, 1919-March 4, 1921]

    29) Upton Sinclair (S), [March 4, 1921-March 4, 1929]

    30) Hosea Blackford (S), [March 4, 1929-March 4, 1933]

    31) Herbert Hoover (D), [March 4, 1933-March 4, 1937]

    32) Al Smith (S), [March 4, 1937- February 1, 1942]

    33) Charles W. La Follette, (S) [February 1, 1942- February 1,1945]

    34) Thomas Dewey (D) [February 1, 1945-February 1, 1953]

    35) Irving Morrell (D), [February 1, 1953-February 1, 1961]

    36) Yossel Reisen (S), [February 1, 1961-February 1, 1969]

    37) Richard Nixon (D), [February 1, 1969-February 1, 1985]

    38) Harold Chevrolet (S), February 1, 1985-February 1, 1993]

    39) Joseph Runner Shrubb (D), [February 1, 1993-February 1, 1997]

    40) Hector Madison (R), [February 1, 1997-February 1, 2005]

    41) Mary Angelo (S), [February 1, 2005-February 1, 2013]

    42) Rudolph Hernandez (S), [February 1 2013-present]

    *Pendleton was the Vice-President nominee for the democratic party in OTL in 1864. In, TL-191, I'd imagine he'd have a better chance to run for president, instead of McClellan.
    ** I chose Benjamin G. Brown instead of Thomas F. Bayard because the latter seemed too young and inexperienced in politics at the time to be considered for President.
    *** I liked Dutch_Atlantic_13's original idea of having various presidents succeed in such a short period, but I decided to tone it down and leave room for McKenna to be President.
    **** I made Reed be president first and then Mahan second in order to avoid another sitting president dying in office, although Roosevelt becoming president after Mahan would have been a lot more simple.
    *****Lodge is a bit of a mystery for me. How would he act just before the Great War began? Oh, well.
    ******I don't care what Turtledove says in this case, Roosevelt should have died earlier than what was said in the books, just like he did in OTL. McKenna would be a bland character to even win his own term. Now, had he been president during the Great War, maybe he would have chosen peace with the Confederacy earlier than later. A little bit of an Alternate-within-an-alternate history idea for some of you guys. Enjoy.
    *******The books didn't say what day and month Smith was killed; only the year. So, I decided to make it Feb 1st, a day that the US government would choose to make the lame duck period shorter.
    ********Irving Morrell is the Dwight D. Eisenhower of TL-191. At least to me.
    ********* Yossel Reisen, the first Jewish-American President, survives an assassination attempt.
    **********I made Nixon as that one guy who eventually decides to abuse the number of terms he can run as president. After his run, a constitutional amendment is passed to limit the number of presidential terms to only two times. He was so popular with the people and his foreign policy was extremely successful. No scandal that results in resignation ever occurs.
    ***********Harold Chevrolet is an obvious parallelism to Gerald Ford. Chevrolet has connections to the real-life Chevrolet family. Possibly has Quebecois-American ancestry. He is president during the collapse of the Japanese Empire in 1989.
    ************Joseph Runner Shrubb is an obvious parallelism to George Walker Bush. A decent president but with the growing unpopularity with the Democratic party, fails to win a second term.
    *************Hector Madison is the son of Cassius Madison. Chooses the Republican party, instead of the Socialist Party. The other runners were Joseph Runner Shrubb of the Democratic Party and William Jefferson Clinton of the Socialist Party. U.S. citizens are still suspicious of anyone from the former Confederacy and very few vote for Clinton. The vote is split and Madison gains enough of a majority to win. He jokes during his inauguration about how there is finally a Black Republican in the Executive Mansion.
    **************Mary Angelo is the first female president of the United States. A parallelism to Margaret Thatcher. Nicknamed the "Metal Angel" for her aggressive and dominant nature in politics.
    ***************I made Hernandez either a Sonoran-Chihuahuan or Cuban descendent Hispanic-American. Wins re-election and is currently on his second term. However, there are still rumors that his family history may have contained members of the Confederate Freedom Party...
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  20. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Location:
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    I talked with @Joshua Ben Ari and we had the idea that Boston (rather than Harlem) is going be to seen as the epicenter of Black life in the United States. Harlem only began getting Black residents during the Great Migration in the 1910s and that won't happen with the CS-US rivalry. The African Americans you done so far only proves that idea.