Phoenicians cross the Atlantic

[monkey]

What if the Pheonicians some time around 1200 BCE establish transatlantic trade with the Olmecs. This would introduce Central America to the Bronze Age about two and a half thousand years early and also bring them new domestic animals and crops, it would also bring new crops to the mediterranean. Within a thoasand years Pastorealism will of probably spread across most of North and South America.

 

[Kuralyov]

I read somewhere that what were possibly Phoenician and Roman artifacts were discovered in some ancient South American port; anyone know anything about this?

 

[LDoc]

I don't know if a Phoencian ship could have crossed the turbulent atlantic and make it back. I would also doubt if their was a captian/crew crazy enough to try this. And even if their was i would count any kind trade route out of the question.

 

[monkey]

I don't know if a Phoencian ship could have crossed the turbulent atlantic and make it back. I would also doubt if their was a captian/crew crazy enough to try this. And even if their was i would count any kind trade route out of the question.

People in recent times have crossed the Atlantic solo in rowing boats, read boats, sheepskin boats and other crazy things. So I think the main barier would probably be the navigational knowledge and fear. I was thinking this might be solved by a ship being storm driven or being inspired by a religouse vision of some fanatic. The phoenician ships dont look much worse than a viking ship to me and if you travel west from the Canaries and east through the Azores you have the curents working with you.

 

[LDoc]

Yeah but then if they travel at the wrong time of the year their is that nasty habbit of the Atlantic to cough up a couple of hurricanes which could prove disasterouse to any expidetion. Also would the Phoenicians want to cultivate a trans atlantic trade? I mean the amount of ships lost and the low cargo capacity per ship would mean that they wound't get a profit.

 

[TJSwoboda]

Sometime in the last few decades a guy tried sailing from Egypt to the Americas, in an ancient boat to prove that it could be done. He didn't quite make it... But came close enough to prove that it's possible. That being said, I think it's incredibly unlikely anyone would set off from any of the classical civilizations, go through the Straits of Gibralter and keep sailing west until they found land.

--T.J.

 

[wkwillis]

Best evidence against precolumbian contact

What if the Pheonicians some time around 1200 BCE establish transatlantic trade with the Olmecs. This would introduce Central America to the Bronze Age about two and a half thousand years early and also bring them new domestic animals and crops, it would also bring new crops to the mediterranean. Within a thoasand years Pastorealism will of probably spread across most of North and South America.

Yes. That would happen. Iron and science might have been developed first in the Americas if that had happened.

 

[NapoleonXIV]

One good argument against any kind of real relations between European and North American cultures is in the diseases. The fact that the first Spanish explorers carried forms of smallpox and even measles which the Native Americans had no immunity to indicates to me that there had been no extensive contact with these peoples for thousands of years.

 

[DominusNovus]

One good argument against any kind of real relations between European and North American cultures is in the diseases. The fact that the first Spanish explorers carried forms of smallpox and even measles which the Native Americans had no immunity to indicates to me that there had been no extensive contact with these peoples for thousands of years.

Nah, these diseases aren't that easy to carry over. They didn't make the voyage until the Spanish have been in the New World for some time (I believe historians have pinpointed the specific guy that was infected with it). Limited contact (such as the vikings in vinland) isn't likely to bring over the diseases.

 

[Tom_B]

It's one thing to say a Phoenician ship would have a fair chance of making a single crossing. But for serious mercantiile activity the long term loss rate would have to be at an acceptably low rate. In this TL I think it would be too high.

 

[tom]

I know I keep saying this kind of thing, but GURPS Alternate Earths 1 has a world called Ezcalli where this happened in 508 BC.

 

[monkey]

Yeah but then if they travel at the wrong time of the year their is that nasty habbit of the Atlantic to cough up a couple of hurricanes which could prove disasterouse to any expidetion. Also would the Phoenicians want to cultivate a trans atlantic trade? I mean the amount of ships lost and the low cargo capacity per ship would mean that they wound't get a profit.

Yeah OK I will admit it is still quite unlikely unless they are sudenly inspired to make rapid and improbable advances in ship size and design. Although if they really love exotic food it might only take a couple of voyages to exchange crops and animals.

 

[LDoc]

nah their wouldn't be enough demand for the expensive fruit to keep on a regular trade route. But maybe if theirs a really big order to financie and expedition a ship would be sent.