Philipp I (Philipp the fair lives past 1506): King of Romans

Hello,

so Philipp I died in 1506 in OTL, but let's say he lives longer. Not long enough to succeed Maximilian I but long enough be elected King of Romans and begin assisting Maximilian in governing the HRE, possibly dying in say 1517 or 1518.
  • Do you think this will spur him to separate his lands from the Spanish crown by partitioning his inheritances between his heirs?
  • Will Juana be able to go back with him to the Low countries, maybe have more kids?
  • If Philipp has a 3rd surviving son, named Maximilian for his grandfather; how would that affect a potential partition of the Habsburg realms.
 
Hello,

so Philipp I died in 1506 in OTL, but let's say he lives longer. Not long enough to succeed Maximilian I but long enough be elected King of Romans and begin assisting Maximilian in governing the HRE, possibly dying in say 1517 or 1518.
  • Do you think this will spur him to separate his lands from the Spanish crown by partitioning his inheritances between his heirs?
  • Will Juana be able to go back with him to the Low countries, maybe have more kids?
  • If Philipp has a 3rd surviving son, named Maximilian for his grandfather; how would that affect a potential partition of the Habsburg realms.

I think if Philipp outlives Fernando he certainly might consider splitting Spain from the Habsburg empire (Fernando surviving will make this more difficult). So 1 son gets Spain and the New World; 1 son gets Burgundy+Germany (Max considered buying the king of Bohemia's electoral vote, and bestowing it on Philipp as duke of Brabant, but ICR if philipp died before that happened or if Vladislaus just wouldn't hand it over or perhaps the pope wouldn't play along). And maybe son no 3 gets the Italian holdings (Milan+Naples). Or we might see it split Spain+Naples etc+America, Burgundy+Empire with Milan, and if the Habsburgs still get Hungary+Bohemia that goes to a 3rd line
 
Third son probably goes to the church.

Unlikely IMHO, that only happened when there wasn't enough pie to go around. Here, there are at least three crowns - Imperial, Burgundian and Spanish (which can itself be cut into 2 crowns - Spain and Naples). With the possibility that Vladislaus of Hungary has only daughters or a single daughter - in which case we might see an arrangement like OTL.

Sure, Lajos II might not die at an alt-Mohacs, or be retarded or whatever, but mine is a close to OTL scenario where Philipp being alive is the only difference
 
Unlikely IMHO, that only happened when there wasn't enough pie to go around. Here, there are at least three crowns - Imperial, Burgundian and Spanish (which can itself be cut into 2 crowns - Spain and Naples). With the possibility that Vladislaus of Hungary has only daughters or a single daughter - in which case we might see an arrangement like OTL.

Sure, Lajos II might not die at an alt-Mohacs, or be retarded or whatever, but mine is a close to OTL scenario where Philipp being alive is the only difference
Burgundy isn't a crown, those are lands equal in rank with the fiefs that made the hereditary lands (Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Tyrol, etc.), and why create such pie if you're going to slice it up to pieces anyway?
 
Burgundy isn't a crown, those are lands equal in rank with the fiefs that made the hereditary lands (Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Tyrol, etc.), and why create such pie if you're going to slice it up to pieces anyway?

Because nobody else would want someone to get the whole pie? Look at how Karl V struggled OTL with the weight of the crowns of Aragon, Burgundy and the Empire on his brow. He split the crowns at his abdication to avoid a repeat performance. The unwieldy Habsburg dominions made alliances that would otherwise not have worked, possible (France and the Ottomans, for instance). Philipp might not see this, but Fernando certainly did when he tried to bypass Karl from the succession. I think given more time and realizing how difficult (if not impossible) it is to keep parts of the whole moving in lockstep, Philipp might feel that way about his holdings.
 
Because nobody else would want someone to get the whole pie? Look at how Karl V struggled OTL with the weight of the crowns of Aragon, Burgundy and the Empire on his brow. He split the crowns at his abdication to avoid a repeat performance. The unwieldy Habsburg dominions made alliances that would otherwise not have worked, possible (France and the Ottomans, for instance). Philipp might not see this, but Fernando certainly did when he tried to bypass Karl from the succession. I think given more time and realizing how difficult (if not impossible) it is to keep parts of the whole moving in lockstep, Philipp might feel that way about his holdings.
I didn't say someone would get the whole pie, but that not everyone gets a piece of it.
 
If Philip lives longer might that butterfly away Joanna's incararation in Tordesillas?

I think so, Philipp won't be able to get away with doing something like that so easily especially as his authority comes via her. Apparently he would isolate her back in Burgundy when she found out about his infidelity which is where the question of her mental stems from.

The War of the League of Cambrai started around 1507/1508, would this present an opportunity for Philipp to leave Castile back to the Empire to assist his Emperor Maximilian against Venice? Juana could possibly be pregnant around that time (it looks like there was at least a 1-2 year gap between their children so it would make sense)

Big question, how exactly do we divide the realms? There precedent for the possessions in Burgundy going to younger sons (specifically the french fiefdoms of artois, burgundy proper) but not so much Castile & Aragon. Also the general attitude of those lands to being ruled by persons perceived as foreign affects things. Maybe in this TL when Philipp leaves for the empire, can he take Ferdinand with him and leave him with Charles in Ghent? So we have

Charles - heir to Spain (Castile + Aragon +/- Naples)
Ferdinand - heir to Austria + Burgundy
Maximilian - possibly heir to Naples

Who would then become the Habsburg imperial candidate? or is the situation flipped and Charles is the heir to the Imperial domains while Ferdinand the heir to the Spanish ones (this seems rather difficult, I'm unaware of any such precedent for Castile & Aragon to bypass the elder son for the younger one. The only thing similar I can think of is John of Aragon, Ferdinand the Catholic's father, who tried to bypass his son from an earlier marriage Charles of Viana rather cruelly I might add but that cause a lot of domestic upheaval)
 
I think so, Philipp won't be able to get away with doing something like that so easily especially as his authority comes via her. Apparently he would isolate her back in Burgundy when she found out about his infidelity which is where the question of her mental stems from.

The War of the League of Cambrai started around 1507/1508, would this present an opportunity for Philipp to leave Castile back to the Empire to assist his Emperor Maximilian against Venice? Juana could possibly be pregnant around that time (it looks like there was at least a 1-2 year gap between their children so it would make sense)

Big question, how exactly do we divide the realms? There precedent for the possessions in Burgundy going to younger sons (specifically the french fiefdoms of artois, burgundy proper) but not so much Castile & Aragon. Also the general attitude of those lands to being ruled by persons perceived as foreign affects things. Maybe in this TL when Philipp leaves for the empire, can he take Ferdinand with him and leave him with Charles in Ghent? So we have

Charles - heir to Spain (Castile + Aragon +/- Naples)
Ferdinand - heir to Austria + Burgundy
Maximilian - possibly heir to Naples

Who would then become the Habsburg imperial candidate? or is the situation flipped and Charles is the heir to the Imperial domains while Ferdinand the heir to the Spanish ones (this seems rather difficult, I'm unaware of any such precedent for Castile & Aragon to bypass the elder son for the younger one. The only thing similar I can think of is John of Aragon, Ferdinand the Catholic's father, who tried to bypass his son from an earlier marriage Charles of Viana rather cruelly I might add but that cause a lot of domestic upheaval)

Well, Fernando tried to nominate Ferdinand as his successor OTL. So, perhaps he gets it to stick (not sure how, though) here. Although, Philipp might be more amenable to the idea of splitting Spain and the Habsburg lands once he realizes its hard enough to get the provinces of one region (Burgundy) to march to the same drumbeat let alone two kingdoms (say Spain vs Burgundy) to do so when it suits one but is injurious to the other.

It admittedly took Karl V nearly 4 decades to realize this, so IDK if Philipp will be able to realize it in a shorter time.
 
Well, Fernando tried to nominate Ferdinand as his successor OTL. So, perhaps he gets it to stick (not sure how, though) here. Although, Philipp might be more amenable to the idea of splitting Spain and the Habsburg lands once he realizes its hard enough to get the provinces of one region (Burgundy) to march to the same drumbeat let alone two kingdoms (say Spain vs Burgundy) to do so when it suits one but is injurious to the other.

It admittedly took Karl V nearly 4 decades to realize this, so IDK if Philipp will be able to realize it in a shorter time.

Very true. But if Philipp is still alive, Ferdinand the Catholic could play up fears of Castilian and foreign domination to split the Aragon from him, designate Ferdinand as his successor with a regency set up and everything. If Philipp can't undo this through some political manoeuvring he might decide it best for Charles to get the Empire and suggest to the Cortes of Castile that Ferdinand to get Castile as well. Also we have a small 1-2 year window after Ferdinand the Catholic's death in 1516 to Philipp's ""own"" death in 1517/1518. A strong revolt and a prolonged illness might push him to make the partitions.
 
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So Charles to Anne of Bohemia and Hungary as emperor and Ferdinand to Isabella of Portugal as king of Spain? I like that.
 
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