Philip V Manages to Successfully Intervene in the Second Punic War

[Justinian]

Let's say that after the Battle of Cannae, Philip V, the Antigonid King of Macedon, realizes that there is a fundamental opportunity in Italy he could easily utilize. Instead of focusing on his border states, or on petty battles, decides to fully commit to an alliance with Carthage or Hannibal, and invades Italy, perhaps landing at one of the cities that had defected to Hannibal, with the vast majority of his forces. This would roughly number about 15'000-25'000 Infantry and probably 2000 cavalry at most. But more importantly he would bring with him siege weapons, or the engineers necessary to build them. Philip V manages to successfully link up with Hannibals army, and they manage to get along well enough to coordinate and work together.

This assumes that he or whatever naval forces he could assemble could transport him from Epirus to Italy, I suppose this may be possible because the Roman fleet was more oriented towards the Western Mediterranean against the Carthaginians. However, if this seems too unlikely, I suppose it is possible he could have advanced from Macedonia, through Illyria and into Northern Italy, which would have taken longer, but he may have been able to recruit more troops on the way.

So with Philip V and Hannibal at the height of his power, what happens?

 

[Justinian]

Could they have realistically besieged Rome?

 

[BIZANTINUL]

The problem is that Rome did not have difficulties în finding allies to throw against Philip V and keep him sufficiently occupied în Greece. Also his fleet was inadecquate to contest Roman maritime supremacy so he could not transport 15-25.000 troops across the Adriatic.

Hannibal is on his own. I have been racking my brains în thinking how could the Roman numerical superiority might be mitigated. Your best bet would be a mass defection (are the Etruscans still alive? More involvement from the Samnites or Greek cities would be helpful. Maybe Syracuse realises sooner that the carthaginian wolf is toothless and old and the Roman one is Young and lethal, maybe Carthage manages to send something în Sicily etc) and praying that the different populations of Italy, many of whom hate eachother and the carthaginians can put aside the differences and put pressure on Rome.
I have seen a superbly written timeline on a carthaginian victory here "A new Carthaginian age" but it does not go into details of how Rome was made to surrender

 

[UoBLoyalist]

The problem is that Rome did not have difficulties în finding allies to throw against Philip V and keep him sufficiently occupied în Greece. Also his fleet was inadecquate to contest Roman maritime supremacy so he could not transport 15-25.000 troops across the Adriatic.

Hannibal is on his own. I have been racking my brains în thinking how could the Roman numerical superiority might be mitigated. Your best bet would be a mass defection (are the Etruscans still alive? More involvement from the Samnites or Greek cities would be helpful. Maybe Syracuse realises sooner that the carthaginian wolf is toothless and old and the Roman one is Young and lethal, maybe Carthage manages to send something în Sicily etc) and praying that the different populations of Italy, many of whom hate eachother and the carthaginians can put aside the differences and put pressure on Rome.

Was there any significant naval power who A. Would be friendly with Macedon and B. Would want Rome taken down a peg? I've yet to think of a candidate

 

[BIZANTINUL]

Was there any significant naval power who A. Would be friendly with Macedon and B. Would want Rome taken down a peg? I've yet to think of a candidate

I don't think so. The other diadochi states are fighting one another, maybe Syracuse can help but I doubt they were a match for the whole Roman fleet. They rebelled at one point against Rome and "they fought valiantly, they fought nobly and they died". Also Syracuse and the carthaginians fought eachother for generations, they were not the perfect mix.

Maybe if they rebelled at just the right moment (Hieronymus dies earlier) Carthage might pass some troops by the Roman blocade and might cooperate with Syracuse în expelling the Romans from Sicily. The shipments of grain might be affected and the psychological effect might bring Rome to the negociating table.

 

[UoBLoyalist]

I don't think so. The other diadochi states are fighting one another, maybe Syracuse can help but I doubt they were a match for the whole Roman fleet. They rebelled at one point against Rome and "they fought valiantly, they fought nobly and they died". Also Syracuse and the carthaginians fought eachother for generations, they were not the perfect mix.

Maybe if they rebelled at just the right moment (Hieronymus dies earlier) Carthage might pass some troops by the Roman blocade and might cooperate with Syracuse în expelling the Romans from Sicily. The shipments of grain might be affected and the psychological effect might bring Rome to the negociating table.

Indeed, my first thought was Rhodes, but I think they were antagonistic with the Antogonids by this point.

 

[dandan_noodles]

Well the Carthaginians repeatedly sealifted strong corps across the Mediterranean during the war, so Roman naval superiority is far from absolute. Neither is manpower superiority; at their respective heights, the Carthaginians and Romans had roughly equal strength under arms, and both endured repeated setbacks.

Lack of siege equipment is a complete non-factor; ancient armies almost always built theirs on site. The role of the Macedonian auxiliary corps would probably be to safeguard Hannibal's communications with his base at Capua for an advance into Latinum, or else to provide general protection to his Italian allies while Hannibal took the offensive. From there, it depends on if he can draw the Romans into a general engagement he can win before the auxiliary corps is overwhelmed. If he can, more Italians will defect, either strengthening the position in Italy or forcing the Romans to draw down their commitments elsewhere.

 

[Justinian]

The problem is that Rome did not have difficulties în finding allies to throw against Philip V and keep him sufficiently occupied în Greece. Also his fleet was inadecquate to contest Roman maritime supremacy so he could not transport 15-25.000 troops across the Adriatic.

I don't think they're contesting dominance, it's more a matter of moving them a fairly short distance to the east Italian shore. Most of the Roman would probably be oriented to the west, trying to prevent the Carthaginians from resupplying Hannibal or landing more troops. Philip V just deciding to Pyrrhus up Italy doesn't give the Romans a lot of time to react, aka actium.

Hannibal is on his own. I have been racking my brains în thinking how could the Roman numerical superiority might be mitigated. Your best bet would be a mass defection (are the Etruscans still alive? More involvement from the Samnites or Greek cities would be helpful. Maybe Syracuse realises sooner that the carthaginian wolf is toothless and old and the Roman one is Young and lethal, maybe Carthage manages to send something în Sicily etc) and praying that the different populations of Italy, many of whom hate eachother and the carthaginians can put aside the differences and put pressure on Rome.
I have seen a superbly written timeline on a carthaginian victory here "A new Carthaginian age" but it does not go into details of how Rome was made to surrender

I was thinking more about how Philip V avoiding a defeat in the 2nd Macedonian War, and the best answer was a preemptive strike.

Well the Carthaginians repeatedly sealifted strong corps across the Mediterranean during the war, so Roman naval superiority is far from absolute. Neither is manpower superiority; at their respective heights, the Carthaginians and Romans had roughly equal strength under arms, and both endured repeated setbacks.

Lack of siege equipment is a complete non-factor; ancient armies almost always built theirs on site. The role of the Macedonian auxiliary corps would probably be to safeguard Hannibal's communications with his base at Capua for an advance into Latinum, or else to provide general protection to his Italian allies while Hannibal took the offensive. From there, it depends on if he can draw the Romans into a general engagement he can win before the auxiliary corps is overwhelmed. If he can, more Italians will defect, either strengthening the position in Italy or forcing the Romans to draw down their commitments elsewhere.

From what I understand Hannibal and the Carthaginians in general weren't as adept as the Greeks or especially the successors states at building siege equipment. You don't think an entire Macedonian army with Hannibal's post Cannae force would be enough to besiege Rome and force terms?

 

[Justinian]

Was there any significant naval power who A. Would be friendly with Macedon and B. Would want Rome taken down a peg? I've yet to think of a candidate

The Seleucids were warming up to them, plus it doesn't eliminate the possibility of an overland invasion.

 

[dandan_noodles]

From what I understand Hannibal and the Carthaginians in general weren't as adept as the Greeks or especially the successors states at building siege equipment. You don't think an entire Macedonian army with Hannibal's post Cannae force would be enough to besiege Rome and force terms?

I mean my opinion is that Hannibal's post Cannae force without any Macedonians would already be enough to besiege Rome, in terms of establishing lines of circumvellation, building engines, opening breaches etc. What he needs is warm bodies and able subordinates to protect his supply lines and allies in Italy. A Macedonian corps would be no more than 20,000 men IMO, and the best case is that they would be led by Philip himself, a general of a decidedly mixed record. It would definitely help, but Mago's corps and Hasdrubal's army would be much more significant reinforcements if they could be had.