If Philip the Handsome dies childless - let's suppose that Joanna of Castile has almost the same problems as her sister Catherine, wife of Henry VIII of England - then who would get the Habsburg territories? Spain would be inherited by the Portuguese kings, because the next in line of succession after Joanna was her sister sister Maria, married to Manuel I of Portugal. But what would happen to Burgundy and Austria? And as Charles V and his brother Ferdinand are never born, who could become the new Holy Roman Emperor when Maximilian I dies? Any ideas?
Philip the Handsome dies childless: who gets the Habsburg territories?
- Thread starter Gonzaga
- Start date
Susano
Banned
Well, theres his sister, Margret of Austria, but IOTL she had no children. Interstingly enough according to Wiki she did get pregnant by John Prince of Asturias. If that child (stillborn IOTL) has survived, while Philip has no sons, we could see Austria-Burgundy and Spain united - under Trastamara!
It appears that this was the last remaining Habsburg line at this time, too. So, if Margret has as per OTL no children, and Philip doesnt, either... tthen the whole compelx falsl apart after both Maximilian and Philip are dead (1508 and 1506, respectively, IOTL). France will win the Burgundian territories, the Austrian herditary lands will fall to his cousin William, the son of the Duke of Bavaria (IOTL later William IV of Bavaria), then still a minor. Williams mother Kunigunde is the daughter of Frederick III, Philips greatfather... the Bohemian estates might elect another King, though, of course.
And as for who gets to be HREmperor, Bavaria inheriting Austria will get them quit a boost in both power and legitimacy. However, with Habsburg dead, other Houses could get hope,s too, like Wettin. Or probably even the French King - what horror scenario!
It appears that this was the last remaining Habsburg line at this time, too. So, if Margret has as per OTL no children, and Philip doesnt, either... tthen the whole compelx falsl apart after both Maximilian and Philip are dead (1508 and 1506, respectively, IOTL). France will win the Burgundian territories, the Austrian herditary lands will fall to his cousin William, the son of the Duke of Bavaria (IOTL later William IV of Bavaria), then still a minor. Williams mother Kunigunde is the daughter of Frederick III, Philips greatfather... the Bohemian estates might elect another King, though, of course.
And as for who gets to be HREmperor, Bavaria inheriting Austria will get them quit a boost in both power and legitimacy. However, with Habsburg dead, other Houses could get hope,s too, like Wettin. Or probably even the French King - what horror scenario!
Or probably even the French King - what horror scenario!
I think Francis I tried to contest the election of Charles V as Holy Roman Emperor but he couldnt "buy" the electors since Charles outbid him with Fuggers financial support
That is rather cool.
I know France would immediately claim the Burgundian territories, but grabbing them immediately is a different matter. The (future) Netherlands are certainly going to have something to say about it, and I think that England would certainly be willing to support the (future) Netherlands against the ambitions of France.
I think that it is possible that the (future) Netherlands, who acted in concert against the Burgundian dukes in their own defense, would also act in concert against the King of France. I would guess that the Netherlands would elect a Stadtholder (maybe Henry VII of England, then Henry VIII or a German prince?) in order to defend themselves. Henry VIII wanted to go to war with France, and fought unsuccessfully several times. With a military contest over the Netherlands (which is ESSENTIAL to English economic security) Henry VIII would be compelled by both personel and strategic reason to involve himself.
And as for who gets to be HREmperor, Bavaria inheriting Austria will get them quit a boost in both power and legitimacy. However, with Habsburg dead, other Houses could get hope,s too, like Wettin. Or probably even the French King - what horror scenario!
The Bavarians I think are the ones with the best claim to inherit the Hapsburg. Albert IV, the man who married Maximilian I's sister, already has sons.
However, if Philip dies on schedule, then it is still possible that Maximilian could sire another child. He has 6 years between the death of his second wife, Bianca Sforza, and his own death. So if he is able to sire another child, then this child would stand to inherit the Austrian territories.
Maria of Aragon, the Queen of Portugal, had a son John in 1502, who would become the King of Castille on Philip's death. All three Iberian crowns would be united by John. So the Iberians and Neopolitian territories would be firmly under the House of Aviz.
Agreed! Maybe in such TL Protestantism would be spread faster and be stronger in both Burgundy and Austria with a Spanish ruler who is always absent.
And as for who gets to be HREmperor, Bavaria inheriting Austria will get them quit a boost in both power and legitimacy. However, with Habsburg dead, other Houses could get hope,s too, like Wettin. Or probably even the French King - what horror scenario!
A Wettin as Emperor would be interesting. Could ITTL Saxony remain Catholic?
True, he wasn't so old after all. But if he dies on schedule then his heir would be a minor, and it's unlikely he would be elected Emperor.
Who could be a possible wife to Maximilian try his last chance of having a heir?
Susano
Banned
Even if the Netherlands revolt earlier... they are not yet religiously divided, so they might revolt together, but still: The Northern Netherlands could manage it with the usual tactic of strategical flooding of land, but the Southern Netherlands, even if supporting attempts at independance, could be less fortunate...
Hm. Looking up who has dynastic claims to the Burgundian lands... Charles the Bold had no surviving siblings, but some aunts. The oldest of them married a Cleves, so the House of Cleves would have a dynastical claim. Which is right around the corner, but of course not actually powerful. Still, they could ally with the Netherlandic estates and burghers... and the new HREmperor (if it isnt the French King himself) would surely not want France to gain the Netherlands, either...
The other possibility is one of Charles the Bolds half-brothers. His father Philip the Good fathered many bastards, apaprently. The oldest one was named Antoine, and had a family himself... which could also raise a claim.
As for the Wettins, at that time their lands were still evenly divided between Albertine and Ernestien branch, so thats a hinderance. The senior Ernestine branch has the electorial dignity, but the Albertines have with Dresden, Leipzig and the Ore Mountains the richer lands...
As for a suitable third/fourth wife for Emperor for Maximilian... Its a conspiracy, I tell you! All roal or electoral houses have daughters born in the 1480s (already married in 1510) or 1500s, but not the 1490s... One I could find, though: Elisabeth, born 1494, daughter of the Duke of Lüneburg. Ironically, IOTL married to Habsburgs Enemy Charles of Guelders, but that was 1519, after Charles V. had intervened against Lüneburg in some feud... Hm, yes, Elisabeth of Brunswick-Luneburg might be good...
Hm. Looking up who has dynastic claims to the Burgundian lands... Charles the Bold had no surviving siblings, but some aunts. The oldest of them married a Cleves, so the House of Cleves would have a dynastical claim. Which is right around the corner, but of course not actually powerful. Still, they could ally with the Netherlandic estates and burghers... and the new HREmperor (if it isnt the French King himself) would surely not want France to gain the Netherlands, either...
The other possibility is one of Charles the Bolds half-brothers. His father Philip the Good fathered many bastards, apaprently. The oldest one was named Antoine, and had a family himself... which could also raise a claim.
As for the Wettins, at that time their lands were still evenly divided between Albertine and Ernestien branch, so thats a hinderance. The senior Ernestine branch has the electorial dignity, but the Albertines have with Dresden, Leipzig and the Ore Mountains the richer lands...
As for a suitable third/fourth wife for Emperor for Maximilian... Its a conspiracy, I tell you! All roal or electoral houses have daughters born in the 1480s (already married in 1510) or 1500s, but not the 1490s... One I could find, though: Elisabeth, born 1494, daughter of the Duke of Lüneburg. Ironically, IOTL married to Habsburgs Enemy Charles of Guelders, but that was 1519, after Charles V. had intervened against Lüneburg in some feud... Hm, yes, Elisabeth of Brunswick-Luneburg might be good...
The Netherlands seemed able to maintain their unity in the face of the Burgundian dukes, and the French King at the time of Philip I (the Handsome)'s death, Louis XII, was heavily involved in Italian affairs, attempting to secure his hold on Milan.
Since Louis is so involved in Italy I don't know that he has the resources or desire to turn that attention north to the Burgundian Inheritance. If he does leave Italy to go to war in the Burgundian Inheritance, then Italian history will be very much changed with the sudden withdrawl (not defeat) of French forces.
The other possibility is one of Charles the Bolds half-brothers. His father Philip the Good fathered many bastards, apaprently. The oldest one was named Antoine, and had a family himself... which could also raise a claim.[/quote]
Antoine not only had a family, he had been legitimized in 1485 by Charles VIII (OTL). Now he died in 1504, but under the conditions of this scenario Philip the Handsome has had no children, so his legitimization is much more important. Antoine played a key role in the marriage of Maximilian and Mary of Burgundy, so perhaps his children (wikipedia has no information about them) become the compromise candidate between Maximilian and Louis XII?
Actually, Albert IV of Bavaria had already finished a war against the heirs of Duke Geroge of Bavaria, in which Albert IV managed to reunite Bavaria. So that is not an issue.
The bigger issue is going to be Margaret of Austria. Her brother Philip is dead, so she now inherits the Burgundian Inheritance. Her father Maximilian supports her, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue with France, which is occupied with a war in Italy. Now Margaret had sworn never to marry following the death of her second husband the Duke of Savoy, but now that she is the Duchess of Burgundy and stands to inherit the Duchy of Austria and other Hapsburg familial land I think that she is going to have to marry. She is 26 years old, and had a still-born child with her first husband. So who is Margaret of Austria going to marry?
He furthermore was married to Maximilian's sister, so since Philip is childless and dead when Maximilian I dies in 1516 (assuming he continues childless), then Duchess Margaret of Burgundy's husband, being married to the vast Hapsburg inheritance, will probably be the next Emperor. If Margaret and her third husband end up childless, then William IV of Bavaria (Albert IV's son) stands to inherit the Austrian part of the Hapsburg realm, and might be able to get Burgundy. If Maraget and the third husband do have child, and it is male and has reached its majority prior to its father's death, then the Hapsburg-(whatever the third husband's dynasty is) Dynasty continues to rule.
Find Maximilian a wife, and find Margaret a husband more importantly.
The Elector of Saxony, Frederick III is a potential husband, (he was the Pope's candidate for Emperor OTL when Maximilian I died) as was his brother (and successor) John.
Henry VIII?
Last edited:
There could be the possibility of marrying Margaret off to one of her Bavarian cousins. Particularly as the second son Louis/Ludwig disputed his fathers Edict of Everlasting Succession (where the firstborn son iherits the entire duchy of Bavaria) made early 1500s.
The age difference may be an issue as she is 11ood years older
The age difference may be an issue as she is 11ood years older
There could be the possibility of marrying Margaret off to one of her Bavarian cousins. Particularly as the second son Louis/Ludwig disputed his fathers Edict of Everlasting Succession (where the firstborn son iherits the entire duchy of Bavaria) made early 1500s.
The age difference may be an issue as she is 11ood years older
They were too young. Margaret needs to marry and start having kids ASAP for the Hapsburg to maintain a hold on the Burgundian Inheritance.
So I decided that this is too cool to give up on the timeline, so here are the facts as I see them on the death of the childless King Philip I of Castile in 1506.
John, the son of King Manuel and Queen-Consort Maria (3rd daughter of Isabella and Ferdinand), succeeds to the Castillian throne, as King John III of Castile. He is the heir of King Ferdinand of Aragon. I'm not sure about the politics between Portugal, Castile and Aragon, but I think that there is probably going to be some wrangling over who gets young John's regency. Ferdinand doesn't appear able to father another healthy child, and John III will probably end up personally uniting the entire Iberian penisula.
In the Burgundian Inheritence Margaret of Austria, the daughter of Emperor Maximilian I and Duchess Mary ("the Rich") of Burgundy, will succeed her brother as the Duchess of Burgundy. She is going to immediately require a husband, so that the Hapsburgs can keep the Burgundian Inheritence in the family without significant opposition from other interested parties.
I think that I have found the man who would make the perfect husband, he is the right age, of royal blood, and I don't think that he was married yet. Plus his addition to the Hapsburg family would potentially make the Hapsburg family motto look outrageously true. Sigismund I of Poland, who in 1506 had just become the King of Poland.
If Sigismund and Margaret get married, and then have kids (and the marriage is too perfect for them not to have kids) then the Hapsburgs will be MASSIVE. The revenue that Margaret would bring with her would be able to finance Sigismund's attempts to break the power his brother had granted the nobility. Furthermore, a united front of Hapsburg-Jageillon allainces would be able to hold the front against the Turks, with the strength of Germany, Poland, Bohemia and Hungary behind them.
IOTL Ferdinand only tried to have another son after the death of Isabella because he disliked Philip and wanted to save at least Aragon from falling to his son Charles. If Philip doesn't have children and Ferdinand knows that John would be the heir he probably would not even try to remarry. He wanted Spain occupied with Iberian business, and if he could get all the Iberian kingdoms united he would be glad. It would be like restoring the ancient visigotic kingdom.
This is so cool! A Polish-Lithuanian-Austrian-Burgundian personal union! Someone should write this TL.
IOTL Ferdinand only tried to have another son after the death of Isabella because he disliked Philip and wanted to save at least Aragon from falling to his son Charles. If Philip doesn't have children and Ferdinand knows that John would be the heir he probably would not even try to remarry. He wanted Spain occupied with Iberian business, and if he could get all the Iberian kingdoms united he would be glad. It would be like restoring the ancient visigotic kingdom.
This is so cool! A Polish-Lithuanian-Austrian-Burgundian personal union! Someone should write this TL.
Well I suppose Sigismund is a possibility he's only what 13 years her senior, except for the small matter that he is married to Barbara Zapolya at the time in question (1495-1515) When would you propose the marriage to occur. Since her husband died in 1504 and she is encouraged by her father to remarry for the sake of the family inheritance its likely to occur before then..
Probably not immediate but Casimir of Brandenburg-Kulmbach would be a useful choice. Nephew to Sigismund and the electors of Saxony and cousin to the electors of Brandenburg (or maybe its half cousin). Would I be correct that she would need to have a male heir who would have a superior claim to Maximilian's nephew in Bavaria.
Other possibles ... Louis or Frederick of the Palatinate. All three have the advantage of at least being her contemporary age wise. Others would be Philip of Baden or Henry of Mecklinburg-Schwerin as long as she remarries quickly, say 1506/7 latest.
Distant possibility, Kristian II of Denmark, though I am not sure what help he would be able to provide in securing the Hapsburg inheritances up to this point.
Oh and no Union with Bohemia/Hungary through Anne of Bohemia, there is simply no Ferdinand for her to marry or any Hapsburg that would be her contemporary She will marry elsewhere and Louis may not die at Mohacs, given the changed dynamic, of course there is a now a good reason for the Hapsburgs to aid Louis At least he can produce an heir that can be married to one of Margarets son's. Given the interminable attacks of the Ottomans. Louis simply could die later rather than sooner.. but he may yet have his own heir in Hungary TTL if its a girl and Margaret has a contemporary son.
If Louis dies without heir does Anne inherit both Bohemia and Hungary herself, quite a challenge for any husband that she ends up with with the Turk on the frontier. Now who's up to that challenge.
This is so cool! A Polish-Lithuanian-Austrian-Burgundian personal union! Someone should write this TL.
[Borat]Is Nice![/Borat]..........
Might be distant but he did marry a Habsburg - Isabella of Austria.
I agree that under these conditions there would be no proclamation that she will never remarry. IOTL it wasn't necessary that she have children, in this ATL her having children is necessary for the survival of the House of Hapsburg.
I like Casimer, Louis and Frederick as potential mates. All three also have the advantage of not being married when Margaret needs to be married. I think that Louis or Frederick would be very good choices, since they were Electors Palatinate, a piece of territory that would fit nicely with the pre-existing Burgundian Inheritence. The problem is that neither had children, which could point to some problems.
Casimer did have a child, a girl, but he can have children so that is a plus. He doesn't really bring anything to table in terms of territory though, while the Wittelsbachs would bring their Electorate with them.
I concur, too far away.
The Hungarian and Bohemian thrones were also elective, so the possibility exists that at some point the Hapsburgs could just gain the thrones through election.
Some probably young man of a good family, but I think that the disorders that may be attending the extinction of the Hapsburg line would set off a rather long and bloody war in Germany that will probably doom Hungary all the same.
So lets have Margaret marry Louis or Frederick (I would say Frederick because Louis may have already been married and marrying a non-inheriting (initially) son won't bring up any major issues with other powers.
Either one appears incapable of fathering children so then the line will end with Duchess Margaret in 1530. Then the fun really starts.
Well I realized that after so physical distance probably has no bearing... I mean' t distant possibility in that he has his own trouble with Sweden reasserting itself to become embroiled in trying to preserve Margaret's inheritance. Or are you suggesting that he may be more amenable to Swedish demands and focus his efforts on Germany and the Netherlands. Its not like D/N does not have some amount of power and influence. Such a combination is likely to make Austria proper though itself the outlier in that combination. Can he get himself elected Emporer in this case, would he even want to? Denmark/Norway/Burgundian Netherlands would prove a very powerful naval foe and probably could stand off the French in the south if need be. Just were would the Swedish subjects fit...could it revitalize the Union of Kalmar.
I assume the new Danish centred Empire would still turn protestant. Indeed could we not see greater influence for protestantism in Germany down the road and a Catholic church forced to compromise more instead of branding Luther in the same vein as Huss.
there will still be France of course...Avizian Spain ...Poland/Lithuania and Bohemia/Hungary( if it survives and doesn't succumb to Protestantism itself)
Louis and Frederick versus Casimir
Casimir doesn't come with a lot true, which to some could be a plus in that he doesn't threaten the existing order, but he does have his familial connections that Maximilian himself would want for her in ties to Poland, Bohemia/Hungary ( he's Louis and Anne's cousin as well) Saxony and Brandenburg. Bavaria at this point is more in opposition I think to Hapsburg interests.
Frederick and Louis of course come with the aforementioned electorate and the influence that it conveys. With the wealth of the Netherlands and influence of the Palatinate It would seem to assure that the Emporer will remain a Hapsburg derivative of some kind.. I would need to research Louis and Frederick more. It may be they simply did not have the right partner or the necessary motivation. There are after all alot of Wittelsbachs and the Palatinate is already quite splintered. All of these three offer some room for stronger protestant leanings within Germany and thus more bargaining room with the Popes, for possible reform.
Casimir doesn't come with a lot true, which to some could be a plus in that he doesn't threaten the existing order, but he does have his familial connections that Maximilian himself would want for her in ties to Poland, Bohemia/Hungary ( he's Louis and Anne's cousin as well) Saxony and Brandenburg. Bavaria at this point is more in opposition I think to Hapsburg interests.
Frederick and Louis of course come with the aforementioned electorate and the influence that it conveys. With the wealth of the Netherlands and influence of the Palatinate It would seem to assure that the Emporer will remain a Hapsburg derivative of some kind.. I would need to research Louis and Frederick more. It may be they simply did not have the right partner or the necessary motivation. There are after all alot of Wittelsbachs and the Palatinate is already quite splintered. All of these three offer some room for stronger protestant leanings within Germany and thus more bargaining room with the Popes, for possible reform.
Incidentally, that king would be Joao III in Portugal, Juan III in Castile and Joan III in Aragon, if I'm not wrong.
However, to achieve that you need to take Joan the Mad out of picture. Otherwise she would be Queen of Castile till her death in the 1550s, at least in name, and could re-marry after being widowed.
All right, all right very valid points. The lack of upset to the existing balance of power plus the future potential to shift the balance in the favor the Hapsburgs is something that definitely recommends Casimir.
The Palatinate is rather splintered, but I think that the possibility of getting adding an Electorate to the family titles (I don't think that they had yet gained an Electorate) would be a big plus. One less vote to have to buy come election time.
I think that just the fact that the Hapsburg haven't inherited Spain will end up making them have stronger Protestant leanings. If Charles V didn't have the Spanish possessions then I think that his humanist education, plus the desire to consolidate power through control of the Church (as witnessed in other Christian Princes, Henry VIII for instance) would push him towards some kind of greater state role in Church affairs. Which would totally throw off the whole Protestant Reformation.
Incidentally, that king would be Joao III in Portugal, Juan III in Castile and Joan III in Aragon, if I'm not wrong.
However, to achieve that you need to take Joan the Mad out of picture. Otherwise she would be Queen of Castile till her death in the 1550s, at least in name, and could re-marry after being widowed.
You are quite right about Joanna the Mad. I didn't even consider that. I think that Joanna would probably just end up locked up in some castle, first by Ferdinand and then by John III (who would become the King of Aragon in 1516 at the age of 14, adding Portugal to his titles at 19, and then probably just ruling Castile as a regent in his aunt Joanna's name.