Philip the fair lives & succeeds Maximilian I

Just as the title says, what would be the character of the reign of Philipp the fair, how would he balance the HRE & Iberian inheritance. Would hus election be smoother than that of Charles V? Would he have a be more, less or just as successful as his son Charles V at handling the reformation & the challenges of France and if he partitioned his realms between Charles and Ferdinand how would he? (Can also posit him having another son)
 
Just as the title says, what would be the character of the reign of Philipp the fair, how would he balance the HRE & Iberian inheritance. Would hus election be smoother than that of Charles V? Would he have a be more, less or just as successful as his son Charles V at handling the reformation & the challenges of France and if he partitioned his realms between Charles and Ferdinand how would he? (Can also posit him having another son)

If Philip survives, you might later see a somewhat better division, so Austria-Burgundy (with if on the table Milan) and the Imperial candidacy and Castille-Aragon.

Ferdinand of Aragon didn't like Philip the Handsome and he seemed to have projected this on Charles, who was also raised in the Burgundian Netherlands. Maybe Ferdinand of Aragon can force OTL Ferdinand of Austria as heir in Castille & Aragon, though OTL Charles will get a good compensation, whether Spanish troops win Milan it will be a compensation for TTL Charles V and he probably is the one who marries Anne of Bohemia & Hungary.
 
Some things that will differ from OTL with his survival:
- Joanna likely has another few children. Catherine of Austria was born when she was 28, so at least 3/4 more isn't implausible. I'd say at least two more children to survive to adulthood. For boys, they're most likely named either Maximilian, Philip, Frederick, Otto, Henry and John. For Girls, names like Anne, Margaret, Joanna, Barbara, Beatrice and maybe Kunigunde if they go back far enough for a name.

- The marriages of his children most likely changes from OTL as well. Eleanor most likely doesn't marry her proposed father-in-law and instead John III. Charles most likely actually marries Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, while his brother and other male siblings may marry: Isabella or Beatrice of Portugal, Mary Tudor the Elder, Anna of Oldenburg, Elisabeth of Hesse, Susanna of Bavaria, Claudia of Chalon and Renee of France. If one son was born very late, say 1515 or so, they might be a candidate for the hand of Mary Tudor the Younger.
Isabella probably marries similar to OTL. So does Mary. The youngest daughter OTL, without John III available, might be considered for Henry II of Navarre, while other options for further daughters are: Christian III of Denmark and Norway, Henry VIII of England as a second bride, John VI, Count of Oldenburg, Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse, Otto Henry, Elector Palatine, William IV, Duke of Bavaria, Philibert of Chalon and Charles III, Duke of Savoy.

- As stated previously, Philip maybe will understand the issues of such a huge inheritance more fully than others did OTL and plan accordingly. Charles gets Austria and the lands tat come along with his brde, along with the Holy Roman Emperor when the time comes. Ferdinand gets Spain. Theoretical third son (let's call him Maximilian) might get Burgundy and other, smaller lands). Any other son goes to the church or is married to an heiress himself.

- I'd say that Philip, as Holy Roman Emperor in place of his son, will protect his sister-in-law as much as Charles did OTL in the beginning, but may try and offer any daughters he has spare if he can. Say an unattached fifth or sixth daughter ITL (let's call her Anne) who'd be in her mid/early teens and thus able to seemingly provide Henry with all the sons he needs along with a good ally?

- War with France in the 1510s alongside England maybe taken more seriously and thus may be more successful. Not so much that they actually win, but France may actually suffer actual losses that last rather than OTL, where it sort of just ended badly for the other side.
 
Some things that will differ from OTL with his survival:
- Joanna likely has another few children. Catherine of Austria was born when she was 28, so at least 3/4 more isn't implausible. I'd say at least two more children to survive to adulthood. For boys, they're most likely named either Maximilian, Philip, Frederick, Otto, Henry and John. For Girls, names like Anne, Margaret, Joanna, Barbara, Beatrice and maybe Kunigunde if they go back far enough for a name.

- The marriages of his children most likely changes from OTL as well. Eleanor most likely doesn't marry her proposed father-in-law and instead John III. Charles most likely actually marries Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, while his brother and other male siblings may marry: Isabella or Beatrice of Portugal, Mary Tudor the Elder, Anna of Oldenburg, Elisabeth of Hesse, Susanna of Bavaria, Claudia of Chalon and Renee of France. If one son was born very late, say 1515 or so, they might be a candidate for the hand of Mary Tudor the Younger.
Isabella probably marries similar to OTL. So does Mary. The youngest daughter OTL, without John III available, might be considered for Henry II of Navarre, while other options for further daughters are: Christian III of Denmark and Norway, Henry VIII of England as a second bride, John VI, Count of Oldenburg, Philip I, Landgrave of Hesse, Otto Henry, Elector Palatine, William IV, Duke of Bavaria, Philibert of Chalon and Charles III, Duke of Savoy.

- As stated previously, Philip maybe will understand the issues of such a huge inheritance more fully than others did OTL and plan accordingly. Charles gets Austria and the lands tat come along with his brde, along with the Holy Roman Emperor when the time comes. Ferdinand gets Spain. Theoretical third son (let's call him Maximilian) might get Burgundy and other, smaller lands). Any other son goes to the church or is married to an heiress himself.

- I'd say that Philip, as Holy Roman Emperor in place of his son, will protect his sister-in-law as much as Charles did OTL in the beginning, but may try and offer any daughters he has spare if he can. Say an unattached fifth or sixth daughter ITL (let's call her Anne) who'd be in her mid/early teens and thus able to seemingly provide Henry with all the sons he needs along with a good ally?

- War with France in the 1510s alongside England maybe taken more seriously and thus may be more successful. Not so much that they actually win, but France may actually suffer actual losses that last rather than OTL, where it sort of just ended badly for the other side.

I think Eleanor of Austria would more likely marry Henry VIII or Henry II of Navarre while Ferdinand of Austria is married to a Navarrese Princess.
 
One timeline I see being possible is:

1478: Philip of Austria is born.

1480: His sister, Margaret of Austria, is born.

1482: Philip of Austria succeeds his mother to the Duchy of Burgundy.

1494: Philip, Duke of Burgundy, takes control of his lands.

1496: Marries Joanna of Castile and Aragon.

1497: Margaret of Austria marries John, Prince of Asturias, who dies 6 months later and leaves behind a stillborn daughter and a young widow.

1498: Eleanor of Austria is born. Miguel de Paz is born.

1500: Charles of Austria is born. Miguel de Paz dies.

1501: Margaret of Austria marries Philibert II, Duke of Savoy. Isabella of Austria is born.

1502: Philip, Duke of Burgundy and Joanna of Castile and Aragon receive fealty as the heirs to Castile.

1503: Ferdinand of Austria is born.

1504: Philibert II, Duke of Savoy dies. Margaret of Austria is a widow again. Isabella I of Castile dies. Joanna of Castile and Aragon becomes Joanna I of Castile.

1505: Mary of Austria is born.

1506: Philip and Joanna become stranded in England and to be allowed to leave, Philip signs a treaty entitles Malus Intercursus, which makes him send any English rebels he has back to England. When the couple eventually arrives in Corunna, Philip and Ferdinand II of Aragon argue and eventually come to an agreement, which ends in the Treaty of Villafafila. Philip is crowned Philip I of Castile. He is struck by Typhoid fever but recovers.

1507: Catherine of Austria is born. Margaret of Austria is married to Christian of Denmark.

1508: Maximilian of Austria is born.

1509: Henry VII of England dies and his son Henry, Prince of Wales succeeds him as Henry VIII of England.

1510: John of Denmark is born.

1511: Anne of Austria is born.

1512: Barbara of Austria is born.

1513: Christian of Denmark becomes Christian II of Denmark.

1514: Louis XII of France dies. Margaret of Austria dies giving birth to Christina of Denmark. Christian II of Denmark morganically marries Dyveke Sigbritsdatter. Frederick of Austria, the last child of Joanna I of Castile and Philip I of Castile, is born. He dies later that year.

1515: Mary of Austria marries Louis II of Hungary.

1516: Charles of Austria marries Anne of Bohemia and Hungary. Mary Tudor is born. Ferdinand II of Aragon dies. Philip and Joanna of Castile take the throne. Barbara of Austria dies.

1517: Isabella of Austria marries Charles III, Duke of Savoy. Philip I of Castile discovers his daughter Eleanor has started a relationship with Frederick von Wittelsbach. He hurries her marriage to John, Crown Prince of Portugal.

1518: Dyveke Sigbritsdatter dies giving birth to Christian II of Denmark's third child, a stillborn daughter. Later in the year Ferdinand of Austria marries Anna of Cleves, 8 years older than him.

1519: Maximilian, Holy Roman Emperor dies. Philip I of Castile becomes Holy Roman Emperor.

1520: Philip I of Castile announces to his children how he plans to carve up his empire when he's gone, due to the feeling of old he has at 42. Charles will get burgundy and the Holy Roman Empire. Ferdinand will get Spain. And finally, Maximilian will get Austria.

1522: Mary of Austria receives her coronation and becomes Queen of Hungary.

1524: Catherine of Austria marries James V of Scotland.

1525: Henry VIII begins the process of having his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled. Philip I of Castile opposes.

1526: Louis II of Hungary dies in the Ottoman invasion, leaving Charles of Austria and Anne of Bohemia and Hungary as rulers. In lieu of any other options, Philip I of Castile sends word that Mary must remain as a regent.

1528: Philip I of Castile and Henry VIII of England come to an agreement. Philip will support the annulment of the English King's marriage, if he will marry Anne of Austria and have his daughter Mary married to Maximilian of Austria.

1530: Anne Boleyn leaves the court after the marriage of Henry VIII of England to Anne of Austria. She will later and take her place as his mistress in 1532.

1537: Philip I of Castile dies, leaving his eldest son to become Charles, Holy Roman Emperor, his middle son as Ferdinand of Spain and Maximilian as Archduke of Austria and possible future King of England.


Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (b.1459: d.1519) m. Mary of Burgundy (b.1457: d.1482), Anne of Brittany (b.1477: d.1514) -annulled 1490-, Bianca Maria Sforza (b.1472: d.1510)
1a) Philip the Handsome, I of Castile and Aragon, Duke of Burgundy and Holy Roman Emperor (b.1478: d.1537) m. Joanna I of Castile and Aragon (b.1479: d.1555)
1a) Eleanor of Austria (b.1498: d.1558) m. John III of Portugal (b.1502: d.1557) (a)
1a) John of Portugal (b.1520)

2a) Maria of Portugal (b.1521)

3a) Eleanor of Portugal (b.1524: d.1526)

4a) Luis of Portugal (b.1526: d.1530)

5a) Isabella of Portugal (b.1527)

6a) Beatrice of Portugal (b.1530: d.1531)
2a) Charles V, Duke of Burgundy and Holy Roman Emperor (b.1500: d.1558) m. Anne of Bohemia and Hungary (b.1503: d.1547) (a)
1a) Philip of Austria (b.1518)

2a) Mary of Austria (b.1519)

3a) Margaret of Austria (b.1520: d.1530)

4a) Charles of Austria (b.1522)

5a) Anna of Austria (b.1525)

6a) John of Austria (b.1527: d.1530)

7a) Catherine of Austria (b.1529: d.1529)

8a) Barbara of Austria (b.1532)

9a) Elisabeth of Austria (b.1535: d.1541)

10a) Helena of Austria (b.1536)

11a) Maximilian of Austria (b.1538: d.1540)

12a) Ferdinand of Austria (b.1540)

13a) Magdalena of Austria (b.1544)
3a) Isabella of Austria (b.1501: d.1532) m. Charles III of Savoy (b.1486: d.1553) (a)
1a) Louis of Savoy (b.1520: d.1523)

2a) Beatrice of Savoy (b.1521)

3a) Emmanuel of Savoy (b.1523)

4a) Charles of Savoy (b.1525)

5a) Isabelle of Savoy (b.1527: d.1528)

6a) Christine of Savoy (b.1527)

7a) Philibert of Savoy (b.1528: d.1533)
4a) Ferdinand V of Castile and III of Aragon (b.1503: d.1564) m. Anna of Cleves (b.1495: d.1521) (a), Isabella of Portugal (b.1503: d.1539) (b), Margaret de Valois (b.1523: d.1574) (c)
1a) Mary of Austria (b.1519: d.1520)

2b) Philip of Austria (b.1523)

3a) Isabella of Austria (b.1524: d.1527)

4a) Martin of Austria (b.1525: d.1525)

5a) Ferdinand of Austria (b.1530)

6a) Maria of Austria (b.1533)

7a) John of Austria (b.1534: d.1534)

8a) Constance of Austria (b.1536)

9c) Claudia of Austria (b.1544)

10c) Charles of Austria (b.1550)

11c) Elizabeth of Austria (b.1555)
5a) Mary of Austria (b.1505: d.1558) m. Louis II of Hungary (b.1506: d.1526) (a)

6a) Catherine of Austria (b.1507: d.1578) m. James V of Scotland (b.1512: d.1542) (a)
1a) James VI of Scotland (b.1528)

2a) Alexander Stewart (b.1530: d.1530)

3a) Margaret Stewart (b.1532)

4a) Stillborn Boy (c.1533)

5a) Mary Stewart (b.1535: d.1539)

6a) David Stewart (b.1538: d.1539)

7a) Stillborn Boy (c.1539)
7a) Maximilian, Archduke of Austria (b.1508: d.1560) m. Mary Tudor of England (b.1516: d.1558) (a)
1a) Henry X of England (b.1529)

2a) Stillborn Boy (c.1532)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1535)
8a) Anne of Austria (b.1511: d.1559) m. Henry VIII of England (b.1491: d.1545) (a)
1a) Elizabeth Tudor (b.1530: d.1543)

2a) Edward VI of England (b.1533: d.1546)

3a) Miscarriage (c.1534)

5a) Margaret Tudor (b.1536)

6a) Henry IX of England (b.1539: d.1550)

7a) Stillborn Girl (c.1542)
9a) Barbara of Austria (b.1512: d.1516)

10a) Frederick of Austria (b.1514: d.1514)
2a) Margaret of Austria (b.1480: d.1514) m. Juan, Prince of Asturias (b.1478: d.1497) (a), Philibert II, Duke of Savoy (b.1480: d.1504) (b), Christian II of Denmark (b.1481: d.1559) (c)
1a) Stillborn Girl (c.1498)

2a) John II of Denmark (b.1511: 1578) m. Amalia of Cleves (b.1517: d.1586) (a)
1a) Dorothea of Denmark (b.1540)

2a) Christian of Denmark (b.1544)
3a) Christina of Denmark (b.1514: d.1562) m. Francesco II Sforza, Duke of Milan (b.1495: d.1535) (a)
1a) Francesco III Sforza, Duke of Milan (b.1531)

2a) Catharina Sforza (b.1532: d.1532)

3a) Isabella Sforza (b.1533: d.1534)

4a) Maria Claudia Sforza (b.1534)

5a) Ludovico Sforza (b.1535: d.1535)

6a) Bianca Sforza (b.1536: d.1538)
 
Kynan, a very interesting tree, but wouldn't Ferdinand be known as Ferdinand I of Spain? Or is that a retroactive title?
 
Kynan, it sounds like an interesting TL. Presumably, England remains Catholic. Does Scotland? And what about the Reformation in Germany?
 
Kynan, a very interesting tree, but wouldn't Ferdinand be known as Ferdinand I of Spain? Or is that a retroactive title?

Kynan is right. The numbering of the kings of Spain continues the numbering of the kings of Castile. A couple of examples: in OTL, Ferdinand the Catholic of Aragon was numbered Ferdinand V when he assumed the throne of Castile, too; the first 11 kings called Alfonso ruled Castile only: only the much later Alfonso XII and XIII ruled all of Spain.
 
@ Kynan: that doesn't seem like a 'fair' division. If Charles, the eldest, doesn't get the Spanish kingdoms (Crown of Castille and Aragon), then he at the very least will be the Habsburg candidate for the throne of the HRE, the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Lands.

The youngest, Maximilian, is a likely candidate to become a Cardinal.
 
@ Kynan: that doesn't seem like a 'fair' division. If Charles, the eldest, doesn't get the Spanish kingdoms (Crown of Castille and Aragon), then he at the very least will be the Habsburg candidate for the throne of the HRE, the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Lands.

The youngest, Maximilian, is a likely candidate to become a Cardinal.

I was just going off what has been suggested in other threads in which there are more sons. Maybe he only get's something like further Austria.
 
Kynan is right. The numbering of the kings of Spain continues the numbering of the kings of Castile. A couple of examples: in OTL, Ferdinand the Catholic of Aragon was numbered Ferdinand V when he assumed the throne of Castile, too; the first 11 kings called Alfonso ruled Castile only: only the much later Alfonso XII and XIII ruled all of Spain.

Ah, I see, my mistake
 
I was just going off what has been suggested in other threads in which there are more sons. Maybe he only get's something like further Austria.

Or, if the Habsburgs manage to acquire the duchy of Milan, then Maximilian could get this as a kind of compromise candidate.
IOTL both the Spanish and Austrian branches wanted the duchy (an Imperial fief), and it even lead to a deterioration of the relationship between Charles V and Ferdinand of Austria, which up to that point had been very well (Ferdinand was the representative and deputy of Charles V in the Empire, later formalized with his election as king of the Romans).

Moreover to 'switch' the inheritance of Charles and Ferdinand, it would also help, if by that point Charles had already 'inherited' Hungary & Bohemia through his wife (so indirectly from his brother in law). Since Charles was the eldest and traditionally in most realms, the eldest son (grandson) inherited; IOTL gave up his share in the joint rule of Austria, but he kept everything else, where he could argue, that it was customary for the eldest to inherit).
Now that I think about it, a division by Philip, which grants Charles the Crowns of Castille and Aragon, Ferdinand the Austrian Hereditary Lands and the Burgundian Lands and Maximilian a Cardinal's hat or Milan*, might work better in terms of shares (especially if Hungary & Bohemia are not on the table) with the eldest getting the largest share and the youngest the smallest share.
IOTL Charles and Ferdinand had to divide the inheritance amongst themselves, if Philip the Handsome lives longer ITTL than he's able to make a will to provide a better guide for any division, which probably lead to slightly fairer division with Charles getting Castille-Aragon and Ferdinand Austria-Burgundy and thus the Habsburg candidacy for the Empire (this keeps the division before the Habsburgs inherited the Trastamara lands intact and gives the most important share to the eldest son, while giving the younger more than IOTL).

(*= a French match might be appropriate here)
 
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First of all, thank you all for replying. Janprimus idea is kind of what I was thinking (thought stil hoping for ferdinand to maryy anna jagellion & get bohemia & hungary) but I think Charles would have to be emperor so we'll need some land in the empire (not sure but I think you actually have to hold some territory in the HRE to be elected). How about this

Charles gets the Spanish inheritance + Kingdom if Naples + duchy of wuttermberg ( so he and his descendants can be candidates for the HRE, controlled but lost by the Habsburg's, part of their titles/ direct Fife's)

Ferdinand gets the Austrian hereditary lands +Burgundian inheritance (Bohemia + Hungary if goes as otl)

Potential Maximilian would get Milan (though I get the feeling it's be better if he got wuttermberg and Charles got Milan)
 
Even IOTL it was contemplated to immediately have Ferdinand as the Habsburg Imperial Candidate and skipping Charles.
The Habsburg, who ends up with Austria, is the one, who will marry Anne (IOTL Ferdinand and Anne did seem to have had a good 'royal marriage').

As for Württemberg, there still is a Protestant claimant duke around from the house of Württemberg, so Maximilian wouldn't be much safer here.
 
I think Charles V would end up marrying Anne of Navarre

Why? He's the heir to the biggest empire in Europe. Anne of Navarre is the eldest daughter of one of the smallest, least powerful countries in Europe. She is also 8 years older than him. He'd most likely marry where he did OTL if he didn't marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary. If he did look to Navarre, he'd most likely go with either Quiteria (b.1499) or Buenaventura (b.1505).
 
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