The reforms of Peter III were very progressive, and in the long term could have led to the greater benefit of the Russian Empire.
Peter III of Russia is not usurped.
- Thread starter TerenceofGod
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Koprulu Mustafa Pasha
Gone Fishin'
Probably would have made the British nerveous if he secured Holstein-Gottorp. A Russian base in the North Sea is not something less concerning.
Depending on if the Balta incident still happens, the Ottoman wars go as they were.
The succession law is not changed as Paul did not see his mother rule Russia.
Depending on if the Balta incident still happens, the Ottoman wars go as they were.
The succession law is not changed as Paul did not see his mother rule Russia.
To start with, having progressive ideas and being able to 8mplement them is not the same, especially when most of “society” does not support these ideas. This would apply both to his expressed idea regarding equality of the religions (even a hint to it greatly simplified Catherine’s coup) and an assumption that he could do something drastic about the serfdom (Catherine tested the water and found that not just the nobles but even the merchant class did not support this idea, actually, the merchants wanted expansion of the right to have serfs to themselves).
Which does not exclude a possibility of something “progressive” being pushed through but what and how is anybody’s guess. Perhaps he could stop oppression of the Old Believers and allow the Jews to settle freely in Russia (both actions would cause complaints from the merchant class).
Peter’s main problem (as far as it is possible to tell) was a rather superficial attitude: he was assured in his divine right and did not bother to learn about the country he is ruling, neither did he show any serious interest to the finances, economy, etc. And he was clearly incapable of taking decisions in the tough situations.
Regarding Holstein, the British fears about the Russian base would make sense if (a) Russian Baltic fleet was a meaningful fighting force (which it was not at that time) and (b) Russia was a hostile power. Of course, an assumption that the British government was always acting based upon a common sense and analysis of the situation is not quite realistic. Anyway, Peter became an ally of Prussia and, IIRC, was not even at war with Britain during the 7YW, plus we had been assured more than once that under no circumstances Denmark would agree to cede a square inch of its territory
-)) so the issue is more or less mute. Probably Fritz would agree to act as a mediator and some mutually acceptable arrangement could be reached.
As far as Balta incident is involved, in OTL it was a byproduct of a convoluted Catherine’s policy, which simply may not exist under Peter. To promote “Russian party” in the PLC Catherine and Fritz agreed to chose the least powerful representative of that party who was poor and dependent upo; the Russian money. Small wonder that King Stanislav proved to be quite impotent because even Czartoryski family turned against him. Then there was an issue of the “dissidents” (rights of the Russian Orthodox) which Catherine had been trying to resolve but to which Peter would probably pay no attention. So the Ottoman War could happen at different time and perhaps with a better preparedness. The main problem was not, actually, a war but a peace: in OTL under Prussian and Austrian pressure Russia returned quite a few conquests to the Ottomans and had to reconqur them in the next war so there is a lot of potential for not making these concessions. One of the options would be a more aggressive conduct of the war on its last stage: instead of holding the line Russian army could keep advancing making the Ottomans much less comfortable.
As for the succession law, there was none except for the right to pass crown to whoever the ruler wants. But it is reasonable to assume that under the normal circumstances Paul, especially if he is a grown up person, would succeed his father.
Which does not exclude a possibility of something “progressive” being pushed through but what and how is anybody’s guess. Perhaps he could stop oppression of the Old Believers and allow the Jews to settle freely in Russia (both actions would cause complaints from the merchant class).
Peter’s main problem (as far as it is possible to tell) was a rather superficial attitude: he was assured in his divine right and did not bother to learn about the country he is ruling, neither did he show any serious interest to the finances, economy, etc. And he was clearly incapable of taking decisions in the tough situations.
Regarding Holstein, the British fears about the Russian base would make sense if (a) Russian Baltic fleet was a meaningful fighting force (which it was not at that time) and (b) Russia was a hostile power. Of course, an assumption that the British government was always acting based upon a common sense and analysis of the situation is not quite realistic. Anyway, Peter became an ally of Prussia and, IIRC, was not even at war with Britain during the 7YW, plus we had been assured more than once that under no circumstances Denmark would agree to cede a square inch of its territory
-)) so the issue is more or less mute. Probably Fritz would agree to act as a mediator and some mutually acceptable arrangement could be reached.As far as Balta incident is involved, in OTL it was a byproduct of a convoluted Catherine’s policy, which simply may not exist under Peter. To promote “Russian party” in the PLC Catherine and Fritz agreed to chose the least powerful representative of that party who was poor and dependent upo; the Russian money. Small wonder that King Stanislav proved to be quite impotent because even Czartoryski family turned against him. Then there was an issue of the “dissidents” (rights of the Russian Orthodox) which Catherine had been trying to resolve but to which Peter would probably pay no attention. So the Ottoman War could happen at different time and perhaps with a better preparedness. The main problem was not, actually, a war but a peace: in OTL under Prussian and Austrian pressure Russia returned quite a few conquests to the Ottomans and had to reconqur them in the next war so there is a lot of potential for not making these concessions. One of the options would be a more aggressive conduct of the war on its last stage: instead of holding the line Russian army could keep advancing making the Ottomans much less comfortable.
As for the succession law, there was none except for the right to pass crown to whoever the ruler wants. But it is reasonable to assume that under the normal circumstances Paul, especially if he is a grown up person, would succeed his father.
I have thought about this scenario a lot. I think a big question is whether he survives despite his submissiveness to Prussia, which will leave him a weak King, or whether he somehow dodges that mistake. In the latter case, he could be far more effective. Perhaps not as thoughtful as Catherine, but he might be more ambitious, which may or may not work.
One thing I can definitely see happening is much more German immigration being brought into Poland, Courland or possibly Russia itself. This will likely increase the skill level in the Russian lands but may cause ethnic tension longer term.
One thing I can definitely see happening is much more German immigration being brought into Poland, Courland or possibly Russia itself. This will likely increase the skill level in the Russian lands but may cause ethnic tension longer term.
As almost pretty much everything else, degree of his submissiveness to Prussia is mostly known from Catherine and her followers. We do know that he admired Fritz but this is not necessarily making him an idiot: Fritz was considered an outstanding ruler by most of a contemporary Europe and was, of course, a better object of admiration than Peter’s aunt. Needless to say that Catherine did not change anything in Peter’s peace treaty with Prussia and for quite a while Fritz was her closest ally.
Of course, Peter was probably not as intelligent as Catherine and definitely more tactless in communications with his subjects, which could create problems in the future. But it also possible to assume that he could do something to limit existing corruption and wastefulness even if just because he was much more assured in his own legitimacy. Catherine was afraid of even reprimanding her own cooks for spoiled dishes (or of stealing the supplies without any fear): what if they retaliate by poisoning her?
Not sure why more Germans would end up in PLC or in Russia: they were welcomed by all Russian regimes and the PLC was a terrible mess.
As an old saint goes, to promise is not to marry. Catherine presumably thought about releasing Ivan as well but then got to her senses. If there is no Catherine’s coup, most of the talk about the German party simply is not there because “German influence” is pretty much absent and, anyway, the Old Fritz had been quite influential during the first years of Catherine reign which does not prevent her from being “true Russian”. It is just that after the 7YW Fritz figured out that much better results could be reached by flattery and not by making jokes about the mental abilities of the Russian rulers.
It is well known that Peter III was a massive Germanophile, far beyond that of other Tsars and Tsarinas. Germans were welcomed by other regimes, but I can see more aggressive policy to subsidize them and grant them land.
It is also well known that the reign of Empress Anne was considered as time of the overwhelming German influence. And as for the rest of the Russian history, the same was said about the reign of Paul and at the time of Alexander I general Yermolov mockingly asked to “promote him into the Germans”. OTOH, only during the reign of pro-German Anne salaries of the German officers had been lowered to the same level as those of the Russians: presumably not Germanophilic Peter I was paying them 2 or 3 times more then the Russians. The whole issue of Germanophilia in Russia is more or less bogus: there was disproportionally high number of the Germans, mostly from the Baltic provinces (aka, born Russian subjects), on the high levels of the Russian military and civic services but this was because they tended to work harder then most of their Russian counterparts (who still were a majority on all levels). Of course, in 1812 the canard of the “unpatriotic German” had been used against Barclay who was born Russian subject and spent his whole life serving in the Russian army; ironically, the leaders of the “Russian party” were Prince Bagration (Georgian) and Grand Duke Constantine (practically a pure breed German, just as his brothers Alexander and Nicholas). Anyway, while Holsteinian patriotism of Peter III was quite obvious, there is no serious indication of him being pangermanist (admiration of Frederic was purely personal issue).
Peter III during his short reign simply did not have time to become “massive” anything and did nothing to replace the Russian high officials with the Germans. If anything, Rumiantsev was promoted to command of an army and Peter’s mistress was pure blood Russian, which is more than can be said about the preferences of his grandfather (German, Estonian, Scottish, Romanian mistresses). And comparing to a number of the foreign Germans (those not born in Russia) holding the prominent positions during the reigns of the XIX century, Peter III could pass for a rabid Russophile.
The Germans, Serbs, Greeks, Albanians, etc. had been widely invited by the Russian rulers before Peter III and especially by his widow.
This was mostly an issue of a number of the volunteers ready to move into the wild and dangerous areas. Anyway, even under the most insane sscenario the numbers would be too small to make a significant demographic or cultural difference.
I believe that the only way for Peter the 3rd to not be usurped would that someone needed to self insert into Peter's body. That way he would have had a better relationship with Catherine and the two of them would have led Russia into a new golden age.
There is at least one alt-history series of books based upon this premise. But he starts with defeating the plotters and only after this dealing with Catherine.
Well, he first needs to fix his relationship with Catherine...and NOT be Prussia's little bitch...
If these are written in modern day Russia, how many years does it take for the Cossacks to storm London?
I stopped reading at the second book of the series but it is a fair guess that London would happen sooner rather than later.
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