Oh, I though it had been, my bad 
Well, minus the destruction of Constantinople is my scenario plausible?
Well, minus the destruction of Constantinople is my scenario plausible?
Peshawar Lancers Redux : Ottoman Empire and Middle East
- Thread starter Ridwan Asher
- Start date
Quite so. In TTL no part of the Ottoman Empire was hit directly by any of the larger chunks of the comet. Perhaps smaller parts hit as the comet broke up but not enough to cause too much trouble.
So looks like I was decieved....
Still, surely it'll be interesting to see Ottomans surviving in aftermateh the fall
So looks like I was decieved....
Still, surely it'll be interesting to see Ottomans surviving in aftermateh the fall
I second that!
So w/o Constantinople getting turned to dust (and I assume Russia is not so fortunate), Abdul Hamid II must be counting his blessings...
So looks like I was decieved....
Still, surely it'll be interesting to see Ottomans surviving in aftermateh the fall
I thought it'd be too cliched to have any parts directly hit a city (the pieces that didn't hit in the Atlantic might have wiped out a town or two though) as the world is a big place and in the grand scheme of things cities are quite small. Much smaller that they are today. Besides it was a bit of chance three of the pieces hitting land and not water given seventy-five percent of the Earth is water.
Yeah it should be interesting, but they'll have their own problems to deal with I imagine.
I second that!
So w/o Constantinople getting turned to dust (and I assume Russia is not so fortunate), Abdul Hamid II must be counting his blessings...
Russia had one hit (the largest fragment) IIRC somewhere NW of Moscow and south-southeast of St. Petersburg. So yeah they've got issues, but nowhere near as bad as western Europe with a hit (smaller than the one in Russia though) and the following tsunami to deal with.
Still the Ottomans have their own list of growing problems in addition to their OTL problems of places like Egypt. The changing climate, a mass of Central Europeans (and Eastern Europeans too I'd imagine) moving south, etc.
So anyone got bets on whether a Polish rebellion is going to strike the Russian Empire?
Hm, how about let's say that the Arabs throw off the Ottoman yoke and create a new caliphate in Damascus, as per the book, but not nearly as powerful. Maybe even Wahabbis are behind it! though that may be a bit too cliche in trying to make them evil and oppressive with real-world references. I believe we have had some discussion about the fate of Anatolia in the Europe thread as well. As per the book, the Sultanate of Egypt and the Emirate of Afghanistan (the latter being very loosely controlled and dominated by competing tribes and clans) are independent but very much subject to the games between the Caliphate and the European remnant states. Let's say Persia under the Qajar Dynasty manages to hold on... how does all of this sound?
The way I see it is thus: You'll have some type of power in Egypt (which given the right circumstances might expand up into the Levant...perhaps even up to Damascus) which balances a careful game of not antagonizing the remaining European powers and constant conflicts with the OE. An Ottoman Empire that has a firm hold on Anatolia, parts of the Balkans (Thrace at the very least but the exodus of Europeans south is going to rob them of a lot of territory), and an even firmer hold on the area between the Tigris and Euphrates (Iraq) due to the need for its fertile farms.
They're (OE's) power in the Arabian peninsula will likely fall just due to a independent Egypt and their concerns elsewhere.
Persia should be okay and might replace the OE as sponsors of tribes along the Persian gulf side of the Arabian Peninsula.
As for Afghanistan I just don't see much changing here from OTL.
That seems reasonable but I'd preferred if we can keep a sinister Caliphate somewhere (preferably in Damascus) as per the book- as following Stirling's premise of, again
Now, if that's too implausible (especially the last sentence), I suppose we can cut it just like we've replaced the Evil Satanist Russians in favor of the Orthodox Fanatical Russians. However, I still wonder if his description above might make some sense in having the Arabs kick the Turks out and also undergo a religious revival in gratitude of the apparent divine intervention.
Now, if that's too implausible (especially the last sentence), I suppose we can cut it just like we've replaced the Evil Satanist Russians in favor of the Orthodox Fanatical Russians. However, I still wonder if his description above might make some sense in having the Arabs kick the Turks out and also undergo a religious revival in gratitude of the apparent divine intervention.
There is plenty of time for such a thing to occur. Perhaps it goes something like this. Egypt under Isma'il Pasha (is that the right Pasha?) might immediately seize the canal (i.e. refuse to pay debts) and expand into the Levant, but after his death a civil war over power could happen where you get something where you have four powers in the region:
Egypt that controls Egypt (and the Sinai), Sudan, and perhaps a few other areas in Africa to the south.
A Damascus Caliphate that controls the Levant (sans the Sinai), the Hejaz, and many of the Arabian tribes pay tribute if not allegiance to this Caliph.
A OE that has a death grip on Anatolia, parts of the Balkans, and the land between the rivers (Iraq and Kuwait).
Then there is Persia which hasn't changed much but it has more influence than OTL over the tribes on the east coast of the Arabian Peninsula.
How's that?
I agree fanatical Othordox Russians makes more sense. Maybe there is some Satanist cult somewhere that the Russian government uses as a bogeyman to keep a tight reign on internal matters.
I like it!
Yeah, I just brought it up as an example of intentionally cutting away something that's somewhat integral to the book in favor of something more realistic. I thought that you were saying a Caliphate of Damascus was too unrealistic and should be replaced with a stronger Sultanate of Egypt taking over its lands, but your recent post shows a way in which we can have the Caliphate (possibly evil/fanatical), and and Egypt mucking about. Cool!
Thanks. Now we just need someone to write it.
I completely agree. In fact the only real part of the book that I want to keep is the government of the UK move to India (i.e. the Raj) along with migrating as much of the British population as they can along with critical infrastructure (such as trains, factory parts, etc.) as time allows.
No I can see a Caliphate of Damascus that plays the other three powers off each and generally making trouble. All the other powers would like it to go away, but none wants the other to take its lands and go stronger in comparison.
I like this as well! seeing as we can agree on the OE surviving in some form or another, what will it look like. I believe The Sultan had suspended the constitution some time before the Fall, so one can assume Abdul Hamid II would continue absolute rule, justified by the extraordinary circumstances (and as a counter to Damascus)...
It is my opinion you'll see a swing, generally across the board, to more autocratic governments due to the impending weather changes. (Even in the Raj I could see the King/Queen pulling back some power from Parliament. Same in the US as it might lead to a stronger Executive Branch much sooner than OTL -think FDR only sixty years earlier.)
Possible scenario; Ismail repudiates all debts to the British and French and seizes control of the Canal in 1878-79. But this greatly complicates Disraeli's plan to evacuate millions of people to India and represents an existential threat to the Raj. It seems likely that the Brits will have to seize the Canal by force using naval assets in the Med or at least attempt to do so. (IOTL after Ismail was removed, a nationalist colonel Ahmed Bey Arabi replaced Ismail's successor, resulting in the British seizing Egypt in 1882 with a forch of 20,000 men.) Either Ismail grants free passage to British ships or there is a war or Ismail is deposed and someone more tractable put on the throne. That man, whoever he might be, can later be overthrown by someone more sinister, like the Mahdi who as a religious/military leader goes on to establish a Caliphate.
IIRC, somewhere in the main thread someone put forward the idea that due to Russia's position in the Russo-Turkish War at the time of the fall they might conquer parts of Antaolia. Can't remember if it was accepted or not.
As for Poland, I would say there's a temporary rebellion, but once the winters start getting longer they'll be joining the Germans, Magyars, and probably Czechs/Slovakians to form the ultra-catholic HRE on the backs of the south Orthodox slavs and greeks.
I like this, although with the HRE in the Balkans we need to figure out a good boundary between the OE and the HRE and my guess is somewhere around Thrace or Bulgaria. Not to mention we need to figure out(since the Russians were supposedly going to be centered on SW Russia) where the Russkies factor in on this. From the looks of things constant conflict between the powers of the East Med might allow the empires like the Raj some serious breathing room in establishing themselves(which the British will need to fully pacify and control India at first).
I don't think it was, and while I don't know much about the war I don't think that would happen. Besides Russia just had the equivalent of the world's nuclear stockpile + go off somewhere between Moscow and St. Petersburg.
So a little further disabling of Russia. I don't know if there will be some kind of super HRE, but there should be one large German populated state probably centered on the Yugoslavia region.
I'll leave where the border finally ends up to whoever goes about writing this bit, but I'd expect the OE to at least have Thrace and perhaps as far east as Thessalonika and a good chunk of Bulgaria.
I agree with the Eastern Med. being in flux and conflict the Europeans will be given some additional breathing room where they wouldn't have if it was completely united under say the OE>
Sounds good to me!
Great! Now we just need someone to write it up.
Yeah, I'm not quite up for the task of writing this, either, since the ME isn't my specialty. If no one aboard this project is interested perhaps we can outsource to someone such as Abdul Hadi Pasha or another expert.
I wouldn't call it a "Super HRE", as it's not really a Great Power and capable of colonies, but I think its position and outlook will make it a fierce competitor in the reclamation of Central Europe. I agree it will be largely Yugoslavian in area though, with maybe some North Italian enclaves/settlements and southern Austria and Hungary.
I would guess Bulgaria and Eastern Ionia would probably be the best border. Once the Germans roll in I would assume that's where Bosnians/Albanians will head and reinforce OE positions there. The Greeks are already independent and might take a little advantage, but I can't help but think that doing that will just get them crushed by somebody.
It might also help with letting the Arabic Caliphate get started. If the OE is trying to hold out against attacks from both the desperate HRE and Russians will give the Levant its chance for seperation? Maybe desperate wartime measures drive the moderate Arabs towards the rebels?
I might be interested in writing the *HRE's story(I figure I fleshed it out, I'll try and finish it) but I'm not much of an expert. Could someone point me in the direction of good sites for researching Austria-Hungary and the Balkans during these years?
Didn't Abdul say he was taking a break from the site though?