Peshawar Lancers Redux : Ottoman Empire and Middle East

Ridwan Asher

Maybe this particular region deserve more attention, no ? ;)

Though I'm quite a sucker in Peshawar Lancers Universe in general. What was the main cause of Ottoman collpase, according to Stirling's version ? And how actually probable realistically would it be ? How should be the fate of Ottoman Empire realistically be ?

Also, didn't The Fall happen in 1878 ? Was the 1877-78 Russo-Ottoman War still on going when The Fall happened ? What if it was the victorious Ottoman Empire who would deal with the post-Fall messiness ?
 

Jord839

Ridwan Asher said:
Maybe this particular region deserve more attention, no ? ;)

Though I'm quite a sucker in Peshawar Lancers Universe in general. What was the main cause of Ottoman collpase, according to Stirling's version ? And how actually probable realistically would it be ? How should be the fate of Ottoman Empire realistically be ?

Also, didn't The Fall happen in 1878 ? Was the 1877-78 Russo-Ottoman War still on going when The Fall happened ? What if it was the victorious Ottoman Empire who would deal with the post-Fall messiness ?
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First a major meteor fragment hit Istanbul. With the centralized nature of the OE, that's a big blow against it surviving. Second, at the time the fall is supposed to happen the Russians are within days of Istanbul and are very much winning the war. That's a lot of stress for the OE to handle all at once. When you add in the desires of the Arabs and other groups to go independent...
 

Ridwan Asher

What if when the fall happens, it was Ottomans were on the verge of winning the war ? If a major fragment of meteor hits Constantinople, or not ?
 

Malta

Yup the House of Saud was up and trying to make territorial gains at this time, no doubt seeing the total devestation of the OE they and EVERY SINGLE: ETHNIC RELIGIOUS SOCIAL group will be looking to take as much as they can and warlord of all previous groups including surviving Turkish military and governor leaders.

Yes, Constantinople/Istanbul is toast, even if the Ottomans were winning both sides would be toast. The lost of such a important city would have crippled and factionalized the political unity.
 

Ridwan Asher

Tomb said:
Yes, Constantinople/Istanbul is toast, even if the Ottomans were winning both sides would be toast. The lost of such a important city would have crippled and factionalized the political unity.
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Yeah, the shifting of center of power into Anatolia didn't even begin yet at this point, IIRC. However, how the things will become if Constantinople wasn't a toast ?
 
Mr_ Bondoc

Mr_ Bondoc

Something to consider is that those persons who claimed to be the Mahdi during the post-Fall era would certainly appear:

* Mīrzā Ghulām Aḥmad of Qadian, Punjabi, India led a campaign wherein in c. 1889, he claimed to be leading the "rejuvenation of mankind". Moving West, he would certainly clash with forces in Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, et al.

* Mohammed Abdullah Hassan of Mogadishu, Somalia also claimed similar "divine inspiration", c. 1900-1920. In OTL, he fought against British, French, and Italian forces, deeming them those who "have destroyed our religion and made our children their children". In the ATL, a northern campaign would certainly threaten Egypt, Sudan, and Libya....
 

Strategos' Risk

My impression from the novel is that the Arabs rose up when the Turks were hit hard by the Fall- and then they ended up with everything "from the Danube to Baluchistan."

The Fall hadn't been a complete catastrophe everywhere; in the low-lying deserts of the Middle East for example. They had suffered wild weather and floods and unseasonable cold, but nothing like the devastation to the north. And afterward, the Arab peoples had seen their Turkish oppressors and Christian enemies struck down—by the very hand of God, or so it seemed. These days the Caliph in Damascus ruled from Hungary to the Baluchi frontier of the Raj in what had once been Persia.
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We ought to scale that back a little. It seems like the HRE-on-Balkans the idea is catching big. I think also book-wise the Sultanate of Egypt was a distinct entity of the Caliphate, a satellite rather than a province. The regions of the Afghan tribes was as well, it just seemed to be a very disputed territory. My main question is what about Persia? Is it a Caliphate conquest or did it remain independent? Not in the book, but I mean what you guys think we ought to make it for the redux project. The book says:

The Shia branch of Islam was common in Persia, although persecuted by the Caliph's men; and common among the Empire's Muslims, where the Raj enforced toleration. Pathans were fiercely orthodox Sunni, though. The Sikh growled; his faith was an offshoot of the Hindu stock, but ostentatiously monotheistic.
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"Damn this head; my thoughts feel fuzzy . . . yes, I'd say that list included two separate groups of secessionists, and a couple of subversive cults. The Muslim Brotherhood, the worst sort of Shia—we get along well with the Aga Khan's people, but some of the other sects are long-running trials—and the Deceivers ..."
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OneUp

Was it reasonable in Peshawar Lancers that the Caliphate was so weak? Also while I understand why Russia was so weak, how in the world was it maintaining it's empire?
 

Ridwan Asher

Now let's think of it. What will gonna happen to Persia ? If the Ottoman Empire is toast and Russia has shrinked greatly shouldn't there be a good opportunity for them to be the future regional power house ? At least they will certainly be able to chip on Mesopotamia and eastern Turkey.
 

Jord839

Strategos' Risk said:
My impression from the novel is that the Arabs rose up when the Turks were hit hard by the Fall- and then they ended up with everything "from the Danube to Baluchistan."



We ought to scale that back a little. It seems like the HRE-on-Balkans the idea is catching big. I think also book-wise the Sultanate of Egypt was a distinct entity of the Caliphate, a satellite rather than a province. The regions of the Afghan tribes was as well, it just seemed to be a very disputed territory. My main question is what about Persia? Is it a Caliphate conquest or did it remain independent? Not in the book, but I mean what you guys think we ought to make it for the redux project. The book says:
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Persia's probably a regional power that made gains at first, though its possible that the Raj and the Caliphate have reduced it to a mere bufferstate in their resurgence.

I don't know enough to make an educated guess either way.
 

King Gorilla

Maybe Persia acquires parts of Southern Turkestan and the Shia portions of western Afghanistan. I agree though that Persia, much like Siam is going to be a buffer state between the great powers of the region.
 

Strategos' Risk

Upon closer review of the book, the state between the Caliphate and the Raj is the Emirate of Afghanistan or something similar; the tribes are loosely ruled by an emir in Kabul.
 

Ridwan Asher

King Gorilla said:
Maybe Persia acquires parts of Southern Turkestan and the Shia portions of western Afghanistan. I agree though that Persia, much like Siam is going to be a buffer state between the great powers of the region.
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I wonder about that. Granted, I haven't read the book yet. But unless I'd get the proofs that anything like the Caliphate of Damascus like in the book is inevitable I can't admit the emergence of such as the most expectable outcome. Well while a more than a century long time can do quite enough I still think the most likely outcome will be that at least most of Levant will be absorbed to Egypt(I mean, it's more or less defacto independent already, a big power and next door). Not to mention Levant is just like one step risk-region from Hejaz. Hell I think it's Egypt that will become The Caliphate. And if they can't further absorb Mesopotamia as well I doubt Persia will be a mere buffer state.
 
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Arkhangelsk

Hm...should I revive this topic...yes! Yes I shall :D

Prior to the Russo-Turkish War the Constitution drafted by then Grand Vizier Mithat Pasha was nullified by Abdul Hamid II. Mithat Pasha was then exiled and Abdul Hamid II proceeded to war. Even if Constantinople is destroyed in the Fall, is there any possibility Mithat Pasha can establish any authourity post Fall?
 
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