Peshawar Lancers Redux: Europe

[Strategos' Risk]

Okay I see what you're going at. I suppose some nations will go more local with a lighter rule from above, and others will be able to go hard authoritarian with rule from a powerful central government.

With Italy I'm just concerned that if localism gets too far a grip it leaves them extremely vulnerable to the likes of France and 'Germany'.

Yeah. I wasn't thinking of some cyberpunk-turned-steampunk setting in Italy where 19th century versions of mob bosses are running the towns as their personal fiefs- though that may happen in a few areas because that would be coooool- I just thought that given the nature of the cataclysm, surviving local ties would flourish in this, and the monarchy may take advantage of them. Fascism doesn't go well with organized crime- the state does not take lightly to competitors- but Mussolini's Italy never experienced an extinction event by meteor. In this case the national government could take as much help as possible lest the Germans- or Moorish raiders- prove to be a problem.

As for being vulnerable- well, why shouldn't they be? Not all of the countries will turn out as powerful as the Raj or the Balkans HRE. Italy may turn out to be playing second fiddle, rather like France-outre-Mer or the Sultanate of Egypt. Their agricultural output aside, I don't know what the state of their military was at the time. If it's not up to snuff as their neighbors they may end up being a buffer state.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Yeah. I wasn't thinking of some cyberpunk-turned-steampunk setting in Italy where 19th century versions of mob bosses are running the towns as their personal fiefs- though that may happen in a few areas because that would be coooool- I just thought that given the nature of the cataclysm, surviving local ties would flourish in this, and the monarchy may take advantage of them. Fascism doesn't go well with organized crime- the state does not take lightly to competitors- but Mussolini's Italy never experienced an extinction event by meteor. In this case the national government could take as much help as possible lest the Germans- or Moorish raiders- prove to be a problem.

As for being vulnerable- well, why shouldn't they be? Not all of the countries will turn out as powerful as the Raj or the Balkans HRE. Italy may turn out to be playing second fiddle, rather like France-outre-Mer or the Sultanate of Egypt. Their agricultural output aside, I don't know what the state of their military was at the time. If it's not up to snuff as their neighbors they may end up being a buffer state.

You make some good points...and I look forward to reading about what you've got in mind.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Russian thread.

 

[chris N]

I would say that Rostov might be the best choice as the Russians would not want their capital to be be too close to a major Foreign power.

I wpuld think that the disaster might keep the French too busy to invade Spain. This would give the Spanish some time to put their house back in order. I would not believe that the Republican movement would gain any strength. The people would however, be looking for strong leadership from the Monarchy. So either the King or his appointed Prime Miniister would have to act.

 

[Slacker]

I'm not so sure that Russia's going to emerge as strong in this alt-PL as some people are discussing. They're one of the few powers to actually get hit with a bolide, which would cause pretty extensive damage to the more densely populated parts of the country and decapitate the government. While thinning the population makes feeding the people easier, certainly, losing the majority of the government isn't going to make relocation simple. It worked in the original PLverse because they were bloodthirsty cannibalistic bastards. They're not in this reboot, so they aren't going to have as much success simply because they're not as brutal. They also didn't have as much organized opposition in Central Asia as they do in European Russia, especially with a Polish/Ukrainian revolt.

Along those lines, I'd imagine the Poles would be among the first to try and recolonize northern Europe, with the aim of getting Poland back before the Germans could overrun it. I see the Russians here being more interested in Central Asia, simply because there's no real competitors. It may evolve that the Russians especially feel it's better to have a decently strong buffer state between them and this German Rome Reborn, and probably help them along in reoccupying, say, Krakow and Warsaw. Especially if the Germans are involved in another conflict, in say, Northern Italy.

 

[Valdemar II]

Some wanted the "Fisherman" culture to have a somewhat Hanseic look that not impossible because the new cities may grow somewhat dominating late on like Bern and Geneva did in Switzerland. But first it important to decide which cities it will be.

Bremen lies strategic quite well with access to the inland trough the river Weser, Hamburg is in the same situation just with the Elb instead, beside that we have both Danzig, Riga and Stettin in the same situation.
Lübeck lies strategic well with access to the saltmines and good access to the Baltic, beside that Copenhagen lies well to control the trade in and out of the Baltic, while at last Visby lies strategic placed in middle of the Baltic. Beside that I could see London and Anwert joining too if someone doesn't doesn't dominate them (primary the Raj). These are other cities through other may also spring up (Aalborg and Flensborg would be potential cases). Likely these cities will like Bern and Venice gain dominance over neighbouring land evolving into mini empires in the confederation dominated by a small mechant elite in the main cities. The titel of the rulers of these cities will likely be Borgermester/Bürgermeister (Danish and German for mayor) and will likely be elected by the small mechant elite. Among the minor independent scandinavian cantons the leader will likely be called "Sognefoged" and the cantons will likely be called a "Sogn". While areas outside the cities but ruled by them will likely be controlled by a "Landfoged" which answer to the "Borgermester". Minor cities conquered by major cities may be ruled by a "Byfoged". In German area we may see that noble titles for the rulers is more common for the minor cantons.

 

[Valdemar II]

Example of a city in the Baltic area

Fristaden Fredericia (Free City of Fredericia)

Voting member of “the Hanseatic League” (Hansa Bund)

Population: 8057 (2024) Population in subject territories 137 000

Head of State: Mayor Hans Christian Moses Deleuran

Overview: Fredericia is a major producer of textiles, iron and arms, it dominates much of the West Fuenish and Middle Jutish area, and serve as a mercantile centre for the area. The city council is dominated by a families which has voting right to the council, through it has open itself up to the richer rural population which has gained citizenship too, many of the minor neighbouring cantons is quite hostile to Fredericia and it attemps to take them over, the fact that Serfdom is common in it territories doesn’t endear it to many. Beside the fortifications and streets the city is completely change from 1878, much of the old building has been replaced with the “mechant princes” mansion while crude and primitive compared to the Raj, they some of the most luxuseous building of Northen Europe. Military Fredericia field a 1000 man and can in case of war raise this to 7000, but in case of war they often hire mercenaries among the poorer cantons.

Post-Fall History: Fredericia was a garrison town with around 10 000 inhabitant at the fall, in the chaos after the fall the local commander declared martial law and began confiscate food from the local farmers to feed garrison and the town, the moat served to protect the town from raiders nad the chaos outside, but still the towns population collapse until it hit it lowest at 2500 inhabitants in 1890. While the local Commander ruled the city as absolut dictator, he did create a coalition with the town richer citizens, the adminstrators and the clergy, and let them sit in town council to advice him, by 1893 they came to a compromise where the council elected a Mayor which took over the rule of the city. In the year up to 1920 Fredericia came to control a great deal of land around the city, ad many of the local farmhand become enserf to ensure a continued food supply to the town. With the creation of Hanse League in the middle of 1930ties Fredericia became a member.

Feedback is welcomed.

 

[Valdemar II]

Free city of Fredericia

 

[chris N]

As For the Scandinavians there are a lot of choices. They could first move to southern parts of Scandinavia. Another possibility would be to immigrate to the United States or they might use their vast sea power to go a Viking and Cease some place lie Sicily.

 

[King Gorilla]

As For the Scandinavians there are a lot of choices. They could first move to southern parts of Scandinavia. Another possibility would be to immigrate to the United States or they might use their vast sea power to go a Viking and Cease some place lie Sicily.

Although cursed by geography, the Scandainavians have a few things going for them. They been sheltered from impact waves, they have long coastlines filled with tasty fish for when all of their crops invariably die, and finally they have a means of leaving. As productive as the farms of Latin America may be, (a relative term in the wake of nuclear winter) it doesn't do them alot of good if they lack the ability to transport it to customers. Norway, and Denmark both have sizable merchant marines, and Sweden has timber, shipyards, and controls Norway. This alows both nations to buy time, and food as a general european evacuation takes place.

I definately think SA is the ideal place for eventual resettlement, as in the long term both nations are dead. But for the first year or two they will prove to be invaluable for the survival of the western world.

 

[chris N]

I am not o sure that South America would be the ideal place for the Scandinavians to relocate to. They would have to take control of territiory as the cultures of the Scandinavian countries is quite different from that of South America. Moving to the United States would present fewer problems as all of the countries of Scandinavia have former citizens living in the US (MN, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Michigan, etc) this might be a better fit. Of course there would be the problem of the monarhs fitting into the Republic.

 

[Archangel]

Oh, and what about Portugal? I think they may be mostly dead from tsunamis the the survivors may flee to their colonies. Someone revive the Africa thread already (it's in the index.)

Portugal is toast. Aside from those living near the border with Spain Portugal itself is just gone. Aside from its colonies there is not much left of Portugal.

Probably 80% of the population is gone, along with the navy, but that should be leaving around 900000 people still alive in the countryside (I made an estimate for a wave of 150m).

IIRC I suggested that the Portuguese royal family survived and moved to Angola before marrying into the royal family of their puppet Empire of the Congo and creating a hybrid culture just north of Raj South Africa

Unfortunately, the Royal Family and potential cadet branches died, but legally one of the these_two princesses, sisters of Luis I, could succeed the throne, without personal union with their husbands' nations.

And the map:

Great map!

Example of a city in the Baltic area

Fristaden Fredericia (Free City of Fredericia)
...
Feedback is welcomed.

Sounds good to me.

 

[chris N]

If the Portugese Royal Family went anywhere it would probably be Brazil. Therr they might stand a chance of rebuilding their strength. Brazil would be Portugal's only hope of remaining independent from Spain. It might also be the one place that the population could relocate to and fit in quite well.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Probably 80% of the population is gone, along with the navy, but that should be leaving around 900000 people still alive in the countryside (I made an estimate for a wave of 150m).

Yes but how many of those 900,000 are then going to survive the winter, famine, diseases, possible lack of government control, etc.?

 

[chris N]

A Good Question. Unless aid would arrive from Brazil or somewhere else then my guess would be that that 300,000 people might not be around come the spring of the next year. While much of coastal Portugal would be destroyed a lot of the country is mountainous and that would result in a break up of the huge wave. Thus perhaps more food stuffs might be around than previously thought.

 

[Valdemar II]

Yes but how many of those 900,000 are then going to survive the winter, famine, diseases, possible lack of government control, etc.?

The backwardness of Portugal is bonus here, especially of the rural population, many of them has had little contact with the central government, grew most of their food themself and their isolation in the hills would protect them to some point from refugee-raiders so they may be in a better position than the Spanish because of the less competion for resources. Of course the surviours is also the group least likely to set up a new government.

 

[chris N]

Here's a big question that needs to be asked -Who is the Ruler of the New German Empire? Is It Kaiser Wilhelm I, who won the Franco Prussian War in 1870 and Defeated Austria-Hungary in 1866or Francis-Joseph?

 

[Archangel]

I looked with more attention over Portugal and the third Duke of Coimbra, (a brother of Luis I and a military officer) most likely survives along with his father (the former King Consort, Ferdinand II of Portugal).
They lived in an elevated coastal area (Sintra Mountains) that will survive (although nearly surrounded by destruction).
The problem is that OTL, that specific royal prince, died a few years later and AFAIK childless.



An interesting funfact: The Portuguese writer José Eça de Queirós would survive the Fall by being in Newcastle upon Tyne from 1874 to 1879. He could give great accounts of the post-Fall years on Britain or any place he ends up.

 

[Archangel]

Here's a big question that needs to be asked -Who is the Ruler of the New German Empire? Is It Kaiser Wilhelm I, who won the Franco Prussian War in 1870 and Defeated Austria-Hungary in 1866or Francis-Joseph?

It would probably depend on which nation is in better shape immediately after the Fall when the nuclear winter sets in.

 

[Jord839]

Here's a big question that needs to be asked -Who is the Ruler of the New German Empire? Is It Kaiser Wilhelm I, who won the Franco Prussian War in 1870 and Defeated Austria-Hungary in 1866or Francis-Joseph?

Who's to say it's either of them? For all we know it could be a minor noble that takes it upon themselves to lead the starving masses while the "Pompous Kaisers" refuse to acknowledge what's going on.