Peshawar Lancers Redux: Europe

[Strategos' Risk]

Random quick comments.

Yeah, even though the MidEast is getting some serious new ideas in the other thread, I think everyone can agree that Italy's got a good chance of surviving. My personal gues would be it's focused on the Southern end of the peninsula and Sicily. In fact, speaking of Sicily what's the chances that the Mafia families start taking advantage of the Fall?

So, Mafia instead of Muslims dominating the boot of Italy. Still nicely-pulpish.

I don't really know the specifics of this and whether it's realistic or not, anyone else got something here?

Indonesia seems awfully far, 'realistically' the Dutch like anyone else would just move in uninvited with their closest livable neighbor- with great force, that is. But I like the exodus/hybrid culture motif that the book has with the Raj, Outremer, and Dai-Nippon, so maybe we can excuse the long way by saying Batavia already has infrastructure. Of course maybe of the Benelux would just go with the HRE anyways.

Of course, those that remain forming an inner mountain dwelling culture does have appeal.

The Swiss who stay become literal cavemen.

Unless we go with the Merchant Marine evacuation idea...

Ah, I forgot about that. I haven't looked through the entire original thread for stuff that hasn't been mirrored on these region threads yet, I may do that but if anyone wants to do it for me be my guest!

As to the last if we accept a Republican Spain then having the king flee to Cuba makes some sense...I'd imagine that if he got word as to how bad Cuba was he'd send some settlers as he could, but would personally go to the Philippines. Just MHO of course.

Yay more exoduses and hybrid cultures. The Philippines, after all, are the Latin America of Asia.

As to Outremer...wouldn't make sense given what we've discussed in the ME thread. I guess you could have something centered around Beirut (Meronite Christians being there), but I think France is going to be avoiding that mess with their other problems being present.

I need to check the appendix, but it's merely named France-outre-Mer in the book and based in Algeria, not parts further east.

The Sami tribes would move south and a few people would likely be absorbed into these tribes, but expect neo-barbarism in the interior.

The Sami undergoing some sort of resurgence would be pretty cool and both pulpish and 'realistic', it would be interesting if Scandinavian/Baltic paganism made a come back. Maybe the disaster wouldn't drive people to form flesh-eating cults but it would still shock their religious sensibilities a good deal.

IIRC Norway had a large merchant marine which might survive somewhat intact. So who wants to see a Norway in exile (neo-Vikings!) displaced somewhere else (South America or Africa)?

Africa would be amazing though I wonder if it would be realistic. South America may be possible, we haven't talked a lot about it on the thread but a neo-Norse colony would be cool.

Oh, and what about Portugal? I think they may be mostly dead from tsunamis the the survivors may flee to their colonies. Someone revive the Africa thread already (it's in the index.)

 

[Archangel]

IMO, some Scandinavians would flee to other places through their remaining navies.

 

[Jord839]

So, Mafia instead of Muslims dominating the boot of Italy. Still nicely-pulpish.

My thoughts exactly.

Indonesia seems awfully far, 'realistically' the Dutch like anyone else would just move in uninvited with their closest livable neighbor- with great force, that is. But I like the exodus/hybrid culture motif that the book has with the Raj, Outremer, and Dai-Nippon, so maybe we can excuse the long way by saying Batavia already has infrastructure. Of course maybe of the Benelux would just go with the HRE anyways.

Again, I'm no expert so I'll leave this one to other posters.

The Swiss who stay become literal cavemen.

Legends are going to tell of massive vaults of gold hidden away within the Alps now aren't they?

Yay more exoduses and hybrid cultures. The Philippines, after all, are the Latin America of Asia.

Ephraim has the Spanish that are already there take over and the colonial Governor(I think) proclaiming himself King and ignoring all evidence that Spain's king is still alive. So that seems to already be happening.

I need to check the appendix, but it's merely named France-outre-Mer in the book and based in Algeria, not parts further east.

My understanding was it was a West Mediterranean Empire focused on Africa West of Egypt and down into parts of the Sahara as it tries to recolonize West Europe via Gibraltar.

The Sami undergoing some sort of resurgence would be pretty cool and both pulpish and 'realistic', it would be interesting if Scandinavian/Baltic paganism made a come back. Maybe the disaster wouldn't drive people to form flesh-eating cults but it would still shock their religious sensibilities a good deal.

Would be interesting, but I would think a syncretic Neopagan-esque version of Lutheranism would be more likely(or vice-versa an extremely Lutheran Neopaganism) instead of straight Odinism.

Africa would be amazing though I wonder if it would be realistic. South America may be possible, we haven't talked a lot about it on the thread but a neo-Norse colony would be cool.

Oh, and what about Portugal? I think they may be mostly dead from tsunamis the the survivors may flee to their colonies. Someone revive the Africa thread already (it's in the index.)

IIRC I suggested that the Portuguese royal family survived and moved to Angola before marrying into the royal family of their puppet Empire of the Congo and creating a hybrid culture just north of Raj South Africa

 

[Strategos' Risk]

I'm talking about Sami shamanism (were there any other indigenous-type peoples?) or possibly Lithuanian/Balt pagan traditions, not straight-up Asgardian worship.

 

[Jord839]

I'm talking about Sami shamanism (were there any other indigenous-type peoples?) or possibly Lithuanian/Balt pagan traditions, not straight-up Asgardian worship.

Ah. That's alright then. Nice pulpish feel to it.

 

[Valdemar II]

Would be interesting, but I would think a syncretic Neopagan-esque version of Lutheranism would be more likely(or vice-versa an extremely Lutheran Neopaganism) instead of straight Odinism.

Yes that would be the most likely, the most of the old gods are dead of this late date, but a pseudo pagan folk religion survives especially in the more isolated areas, and without the university fostering othodoxy Christianity and that will likely mix, a few Gods may reermerge the Sami still worshiped Tjasse and Skade (two Giant/Jaettes), and some monsters and trolls may become Gods. Yhis is more unlikely among the Fisherman-Culture because of their strong crypto-Calvinist elements and their greater contact with outer world. Technological the Neo-Pagans of inner Scandinavia will likely keep the knowledge of riflemaking, but any kind of centralise state is likely to break down, and most organisation will exist at vilage level, linguistic they Scandinavian speaking but with many more Sami loan words than today.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Just something I cooked up for a possible outcome in the Balkans (probably some time in the early 1900s a generation or two after the Fall): See next post

Germans from Germany and Austria streamed south (throw in some Benelux peoples too) into the Balkans and Northern Italy. Out of this comes the Greater German Empire. Not made of just Germans but Czechs, Magyars, Slavs, and a polygot of others that fled south, etc. but Germans hold the real power here. The other ethnic peoples, especially the Slavs and Magyars, have had several rebellions, but those have been brutally crushed by the Hapsburg-Hohenzollern Emperors which have cost them dearly as German settlers came into their lands that were seized after the rebellions.

Poland in the confusion rebels from Russia (and is surprisingly successful) but soon realizes the mess of weather change, and they to migrate south into Romania and the western Ukraine. Native Ukrainians weary of the Poles but now getting the brunt of Russian resettlement choose the lesser of two shitty situations and side with the Poles. Thus a fused Republic of Poles and Ukrainians sit atop a conquered Romanian populace. Situated between a still powerful Russian Empire and the Greater German Empire they walk a tight line in preserving their independence.

The Swiss Republic survived by hunkering down and even grew a bit as some of their neighbors feeling abandoned by their fleeing governments joined the mountain dwellers. Initial refugees were welcomed but as more flooded through the Swiss were forced to used sometimes brutal methods to protect themselves which worked as other refugees started avoiding Switzerland lest their own lives become forfeit.

The Kingdom of Italy has suffered the loss of their northern part and chafes as it, but the mass exodus from Central Europe just was not able to be stemmed by the nascent Kingdom of Italy. However things have been looking up for the Kingdom of Italy since the initial losses. Their produce and agricultural goods from Sicily and Southern Italy have stabilized their populace and brought them great wealth selling to the other nations in the Med. basin.

The Kingdom of Bulgaria has both gained and lost territory since the Fall and whose existence lives on the fact that the Greater German Empire and the Ottoman Empire wants to keep a nice buffer state between each other along as much of their border as possible.

The Kingdom of Greece was "by the grace of God there goes I" nation. After the Fall and the exodus from Europe Greece's still relatively warm weather would have been a beacon to those fleeing south. Greece however lucked out as the mainly German onslaught stalled to the north as they digested their new Balkan possessions and home. The Kingdom of Greece was even able to ally with the Germans against the Ottomans in their short war and gained a little territory to the north (including southern Epirus) however this has earned the enmity of the Ottoman Empire leaving the Greeks highly dependent on the Greater German Empire for support.

The Ottoman Empire has survived the Fall as best as it could. Talented leadership prevented the Russians from running amok and stopping their southern pushes into their territory. It was only the war with the resurgent Egypt that distracted the Ottomans long enough for the Germans and Greece to rob it of its far flung Balkan territories. The Ottomans even then still retained much of its Balkan territory, all of Anatolia, and a death grip on the valuable Mesopotamia. They even reclaimed 'Kuwait' from the British in exchange for grain and other agricultural goods.

To the north remains empty abandoned cities, remote villages (throwbacks to the Dark Ages), and roaming bands of barbarians.

Far to the East is the Russian Empire centered now on the Black Sea coast and the Ukraine it holds vast territories and peoples subject. Much reduced from its height pre-Fall the Russians are still a power to reckon with.

 

[Shadow Knight]

And the map:

 

[Jord839]

Just something I cooked up for a possible outcome in the Balkans (probably some time in the early 1900s a generation or two after the Fall): See next post

Germans from Germany and Austria streamed south (throw in some Benelux peoples too) into the Balkans and Northern Italy. Out of this comes the Greater German Empire. Not made of just Germans but Czechs, Magyars, Slavs, and a polygot of others that fled south, etc. but Germans hold the real power here. The other ethnic peoples, especially the Slavs and Magyars, have had several rebellions, but those have been brutally crushed by the Hapsburg-Hohenzollern Emperors which have cost them dearly as German settlers came into their lands that were seized after the rebellions.

Poland in the confusion rebels from Russia (and is surprisingly successful) but soon realizes the mess of weather change, and they to migrate south into Romania and the western Ukraine. Native Ukrainians weary of the Poles but now getting the brunt of Russian resettlement choose the lesser of two shitty situations and side with the Poles. Thus a fused Republic of Poles and Ukrainians sit atop a conquered Romanian populace. Situated between a still powerful Russian Empire and the Greater German Empire they walk a tight line in preserving their independence.

The Swiss Republic survived by hunkering down and even grew a bit as some of their neighbors feeling abandoned by their fleeing governments joined the mountain dwellers. Initial refugees were welcomed but as more flooded through the Swiss were forced to used sometimes brutal methods to protect themselves which worked as other refugees started avoiding Switzerland lest their own lives become forfeit.

The Kingdom of Italy has suffered the loss of their northern part and chafes as it, but the mass exodus from Central Europe just was not able to be stemmed by the nascent Kingdom of Italy. However things have been looking up for the Kingdom of Italy since the initial losses. Their produce and agricultural goods from Sicily and Southern Italy have stabilized their populace and brought them great wealth selling to the other nations in the Med. basin.

The Kingdom of Bulgaria has both gained and lost territory since the Fall and whose existence lives on the fact that the Greater German Empire and the Ottoman Empire wants to keep a nice buffer state between each other along as much of their border as possible.

The Kingdom of Greece was "by the grace of God there goes I" nation. After the Fall and the exodus from Europe Greece's still relatively warm weather would have been a beacon to those fleeing south. Greece however lucked out as the mainly German onslaught stalled to the north as they digested their new Balkan possessions and home. The Kingdom of Greece was even able to ally with the Germans against the Ottomans in their short war and gained a little territory to the north (including southern Epirus) however this has earned the enmity of the Ottoman Empire leaving the Greeks highly dependent on the Greater German Empire for support.

The Ottoman Empire has survived the Fall as best as it could. Talented leadership prevented the Russians from running amok and stopping their southern pushes into their territory. It was only the war with the resurgent Egypt that distracted the Ottomans long enough for the Germans and Greece to rob it of its far flung Balkan territories. The Ottomans even then still retained much of its Balkan territory, all of Anatolia, and a death grip on the valuable Mesopotamia. They even reclaimed 'Kuwait' from the British in exchange for grain and other agricultural goods.

To the north remains empty abandoned cities, remote villages (throwbacks to the Dark Ages), and roaming bands of barbarians.

Far to the East is the Russian Empire centered now on the Black Sea coast and the Ukraine it holds vast territories and peoples subject. Much reduced from its height pre-Fall the Russians are still a power to reckon with.

I like it.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Random quick comments.

So, Mafia instead of Muslims dominating the boot of Italy. Still nicely-pulpish.

No...just no. Granted their will be some kind of criminal enterprise hoarding food and selling it for high prices but these endeavors typically only survive when the government uses a light hand in this situation the Kingdom of Italy is going to quickly stamp out organized criminal organizations and brutally. This age is likely to have more authoritarianism not less. This a gustappo/NKVD crushing on Prohibition (in the 1920s US).

Indonesia seems awfully far, 'realistically' the Dutch like anyone else would just move in uninvited with their closest livable neighbor- with great force, that is. But I like the exodus/hybrid culture motif that the book has with the Raj, Outremer, and Dai-Nippon, so maybe we can excuse the long way by saying Batavia already has infrastructure. Of course maybe of the Benelux would just go with the HRE anyways.

I agree but the Dutch don't have much of a choice unless they want to be subsumed into another culture. If the UK hadn't already crushed the Afrikaaners maybe they could move there...but honestly the Dutch just don't have anywhere else to go if they want their own country. Unless they are going to move into and take over another nation.

The Swiss who stay become literal cavemen.

Yay more exoduses and hybrid cultures. The Philippines, after all, are the Latin America of Asia.

Yeah...but I've made my comments on that issue so I'll leave it to others to make further comments.

I need to check the appendix, but it's merely named France-outre-Mer in the book and based in Algeria, not parts further east.

Oh okay. Just confusing it with the Crusader era terminology.

The Sami undergoing some sort of resurgence would be pretty cool and both pulpish and 'realistic', it would be interesting if Scandinavian/Baltic paganism made a come back. Maybe the disaster wouldn't drive people to form flesh-eating cults but it would still shock their religious sensibilities a good deal.

Yeah definitely could see that.

Africa would be amazing though I wonder if it would be realistic. South America may be possible, we haven't talked a lot about it on the thread but a neo-Norse colony would be cool.

What about moving in on one of Portugal's colonies? Portugal isn't around to complain.

Oh, and what about Portugal? I think they may be mostly dead from tsunamis the the survivors may flee to their colonies. Someone revive the Africa thread already (it's in the index.)

Portugal is toast. Aside from those living near the border with Spain Portugal itself is just gone. Aside from its colonies there is not much left of Portugal.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I like it.

Thanks.

 

[Valdemar II]

I like it but I doubt the Ottomans will keep anything of European part of the Empire, especially with a Russian army in Thrace at the fall (which will likely st some of state up there, through it will likely be overrun later on). Beside that Northen Bulgaria is completely open for invasion so they will likely be either overrun by the Germans or the Poles, and the Greeks will likely be reduced to it defensive 1822 borders and likely gain most of the isles between them and Anatolia.

How Balkan will look linguistic in the more hostile places the native will survive while in the valleys, grasslands ans along the coast they be replaced by "German" and "Polish" refugee-invaders.

 

[Shadow Knight]

I like it but I doubt the Ottomans will keep anything of European part of the Empire, especially with a Russian army in Thrace at the fall (which will likely st some of state up there, through it will likely be overrun later on). Beside that Northen Bulgaria is completely open for invasion so they will likely be either overrun by the Germans or the Poles, and the Greeks will likely be reduced to it defensive 1822 borders and likely gain most of the isles between them and Anatolia.

How Balkan will look linguistic in the more hostile places the native will survive while in the valleys, grasslands ans along the coast they be replaced by "German" and "Polish" refugee-invaders.

Sorry man but the treaty of San Stefano was signed long before the Fall happened (March 3rd 1878 versus October 1878) and the later revised treaty (Treaty of Berlin, July 13, 1878) done at the Congress of Berlin. So no Russian forces knocking on the door of the Ottoman's capital.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

The Mafia weren't all criminal organizations. Wasn't it a lot about using fraternal ties to help each other through ritualized nepotism as a throwback to the feudal era?

Nice write-up but I think the exodus state would make more pretensions about being a continuation with the HRE. And there was all that talk on the first page about them having some sort of ethnic caste system, with Slavs on the bottom.

 

[Shadow Knight]

The Mafia weren't all criminal organizations. Wasn't it a lot about using fraternal ties to help each other through ritualized nepotism as a throwback to the feudal era?

In a sense I suppose, but are those fraternal ties going to be powerful enough to prevent an autocratic government from being the ones in charge?

I guess it comes down to who has the greater power base. The King of Italy or polyglot of non-unified families.

Nice write-up but I think the exodus state would make more pretensions about being a continuation with the HRE. And there was all that talk on the first page about them having some sort of ethnic caste system, with Slavs on the bottom.

Maybe...Besides if you have lots of Protestant northern Germans/Czechs, etc. successfully fleeing south they might not be so enthused with the idea (HRE sit a little to close to the Catholic Church). Perhaps they claim a connection but don't really go beyond that.

I don't think there was anything that I wrote that would preclude a caste system. I thought I kind of supported that by mentioning the rebellions and the Slavs/Magyars being punished. :shrugs:

 

[chris N]

Judging from the map showing the impact areas I would say that the impact would have set off earthquakes in a lot of Europe. It is possible that the Channel might very well have poured into France. In Russia the Imct would have leveled a lot of ground and created a huge crater and it would have also cause eath quake vibrations to hit St Petersburg, Helsinki and Moscow.

It would seem more logical for the Russians to relocate to the southern Ukraine and perhaps Tsargrad would become the new Imperial capital.

As for France, The fact that the French had a vast colonila empire might very well have allowed the country to bounce back from the Fall without a total pull out from ancient France.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

In a sense I suppose, but are those fraternal ties going to be powerful enough to prevent an autocratic government from being the ones in charge?

I guess it comes down to who has the greater power base. The King of Italy or polyglot of non-unified families.

Well the King could be in charge but locally the Mafia is strengthened as communities band together to survive the post-apocalypse. Personally I think the Fall would promote localism, not state authoritarianism unless the monarchy is very capable of establishing one.

 

[King Gorilla]

Judging from the map showing the impact areas I would say that the impact would have set off earthquakes in a lot of Europe. It is possible that the Channel might very well have poured into France. In Russia the Imct would have leveled a lot of ground and created a huge crater and it would have also cause eath quake vibrations to hit St Petersburg, Helsinki and Moscow.

It would seem more logical for the Russians to relocate to the southern Ukraine and perhaps Tsargrad would become the new Imperial capital.

As for France, The fact that the French had a vast colonila empire might very well have allowed the country to bounce back from the Fall without a total pull out from ancient France.

I'd imagine that with the nuclear winter Russia would prefer a more southerly capital, I'm thinking either Sevastopol or Rostov as Tsargrad is incredibly cold even in a good year.

I agree that the french might be able to hole on to much of their original territory, and they will certainly be the first nation to reacquire their own boarders, and it is quite likely they will help themselves to Iberia once national unity is restored.

As for Italy, I agree with Shadow Knight in that northern italy, at least as far down as Bolongia, is probably going to be overtaken by the german hordes. The area will almost certainly be subject to heavy ethnic cleansing. The refugees from such will flee south, until turned back by gunpoint and the lucky ones will be able to immigrate to French North Africa, or Latin America. The unlucky ones will starve to death.

 

[chris N]

Yes, I would agree with your point the Black Sea Port would make a better capital with a much milder winter.

It would seem that even tough the Scandinavians are capable of dealing with harsh winters they would be forced to migrate south. Of course it is also possible that they might immigrate to the New World or seek to join the New German Empire. Without a doubt the Serbs and Albanians would be pushed out of their homes.

 

[Shadow Knight]

Judging from the map showing the impact areas I would say that the impact would have set off earthquakes in a lot of Europe. It is possible that the Channel might very well have poured into France. In Russia the Imct would have leveled a lot of ground and created a huge crater and it would have also cause eath quake vibrations to hit St Petersburg, Helsinki and Moscow.

It would seem more logical for the Russians to relocate to the southern Ukraine and perhaps Tsargrad would become the new Imperial capital.

As for France, The fact that the French had a vast colonila empire might very well have allowed the country to bounce back from the Fall without a total pull out from ancient France.

I would have assumed earthquakes, forest fires, etc. would all have been part of the package deal here.

On my rough map I did I had them move into the Ukraine, and I'd imagine the Crimea and the Caucuses would be prime spots too. (And if really desperate or needing to expand into Central Asia).

As for a capital I was thinking Rostov, Sevastopol, Odessa, or if the Czars really wanted build a new one somewhere on the Black Sea coast.

As for France I figured they be able to hold onto the Med. coast and a little bit north, but not much more than that. And those there would be under the same pressures as everyone else at that latitude.

Well the King could be in charge but locally the Mafia is strengthened as communities band together to survive the post-apocalypse. Personally I think the Fall would promote localism, not state authoritarianism unless the monarchy is very capable of establishing one.

Okay I see what you're going at. I suppose some nations will go more local with a lighter rule from above, and others will be able to go hard authoritarian with rule from a powerful central government.

With Italy I'm just concerned that if localism gets too far a grip it leaves them extremely vulnerable to the likes of France and 'Germany'.

I'd imagine that with the nuclear winter Russia would prefer a more southerly capital, I'm thinking either Sevastopol or Rostov as Tsargrad is incredibly cold even in a good year.

I agree that the french might be able to hole on to much of their original territory, and they will certainly be the first nation to reacquire their own boarders, and it is quite likely they will help themselves to Iberia once national unity is restored.

As for Italy, I agree with Shadow Knight in that northern italy, at least as far down as Bolongia, is probably going to be overtaken by the german hordes. The area will almost certainly be subject to heavy ethnic cleansing. The refugees from such will flee south, until turned back by gunpoint and the lucky ones will be able to immigrate to French North Africa, or Latin America. The unlucky ones will starve to death.

Sadly there is going to be a lot ethnic cleansing going on...