Peshawar Lancers Redux: Europe
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
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Focusing on Europe, I think Stirling, in writing off Europeans as cannibals, was just being lazy so that he wouldn't have to write about them. The appendixes say that the European farmers who survived used stone tools. False. They had iron tools, and the human capacity to survive on little food is actually very high. There would still be huge die off, but some societies and medieval-level farming would return within 5 years. At least, that's an optimistic estimate. More likely 10 years.
Perhaps Poland gets to rise up while the Germans, Austrians and Russians are taking care of themselves?
Perhaps Poland gets to rise up while the Germans, Austrians and Russians are taking care of themselves?
I think that while it's highly simplified to say everyone in Europe becomes a cannibal, what we can do to preserve the "Mad-Max in Neo-Victorian World" feel is to have cultures mutate and have spike-and-leather warlord types dominate the devastated areas. They may indulge in such traditions as cannibalism.
And ironically, while Angrezi Raj may end up being one of the main powers of the post-Fall world, the ruined British Isles are populated by the highest numbers of cannibals, since the weather and terrain after the Fall are very unsuited for returning to real agriculture. Takes a bit of piss out of Anglowank, doesn't it?
And ironically, while Angrezi Raj may end up being one of the main powers of the post-Fall world, the ruined British Isles are populated by the highest numbers of cannibals, since the weather and terrain after the Fall are very unsuited for returning to real agriculture. Takes a bit of piss out of Anglowank, doesn't it?
First of all, there is no way the Gulf Stream is being disrupted for a long period of time by a meteorite.
Secondly, more European states would survive. 'Eagle mentioned Poland, but that's personally a more unlikely option. The Poles are being kept down by three powers at the same time and most likely will join this HRE as Greeks in status.
Thirdly, why villainous? We are creating a plausible timeline here, not a book. No one is hero or a villain, because that's the way it is in history.
Also, Italy is an interesting option for a power. It could rival Franceand I don't know why Stirling had it absorbed. Too lazy, I guess.
And obviously the British Raj isn't getting anywhere near the Vistula with a German power nearby.
Secondly, more European states would survive. 'Eagle mentioned Poland, but that's personally a more unlikely option. The Poles are being kept down by three powers at the same time and most likely will join this HRE as Greeks in status.
Thirdly, why villainous? We are creating a plausible timeline here, not a book. No one is hero or a villain, because that's the way it is in history.
Also, Italy is an interesting option for a power. It could rival Franceand I don't know why Stirling had it absorbed. Too lazy, I guess.
And obviously the British Raj isn't getting anywhere near the Vistula with a German power nearby.
The Eagle Throne.
I guess I'll repeat my somewhat less villainous idea of an unholy union of Habsburgs, Greeks and desperate Ottoman remnants creating a sort-of 'Empire of the Balkans'... but this is supposed to be more realistic, so perhaps not.
I hadn't thought about the Poles actually. If they are brought in as an upper-class "race" then the lower-class would probably be seen instead as the "barbarous south slavs" rather than just slavs. Probably will make the HRE more tolerant as well.
As for the villainous, I probably should have been clear. I meant villainous from the Raj's perspective, and from ours its probably more dystopic. Though I would expect that there is a lot of good people and attempts to help the southern slavs live better. I'm not saying Draka-HRE here, sort of a non-genocidal Neo-Victorian Nazi Empire with a strong feeling of "God is on our side".
And yeah, the Raj ain't getting nowhere near the vistula.
By the way, how devastated was Italy? I have yet to read PL, and am largely going on my assumptions. I thought that it was hit by one of the meteorites or something happened to seriously damage it. Am I wrong about this?
1. Why do the orthodox Greek taking part and oppress the south slavs?
2. The *HRE and the Balkan-conquest seems overpowered. The Balkan should be partitioned between *HRE and the main remnant of Russia, some kind of Russian Byzantium with guns centered around the Black and Caspian Sea.
More like Double-Headed Eagle Throne!
I understand your concerns, but I think we don't want to make it super-realistic, because that takes a bit of the pulp flavor of the setting. So I think some of the more ASB environmental aspects such as Gulf Stream disruption is necessary to make the global weather apocalyptic for a few years (though I guess if you can substitute it for something more realistic that would be good too.)
I'm also interested in how Italy could have survived other than for jumping across the Mediterranean to live in the Maghreb under the French-Algerians or Spaniard-Moroccans.
I think "villainous" would mean from the viewpoint of the British Raj, but to be honest they're openly imperialistic and expansionistic as anybody, just more liberal democratic about it. Come to think of it, perhaps they were better than the Satanist Cannibal Russians in the book, but what made them better than the Caliphate or the Dai-Nippon other than for their skin color?
I understand your concerns, but I think we don't want to make it super-realistic, because that takes a bit of the pulp flavor of the setting. So I think some of the more ASB environmental aspects such as Gulf Stream disruption is necessary to make the global weather apocalyptic for a few years (though I guess if you can substitute it for something more realistic that would be good too.)
I'm also interested in how Italy could have survived other than for jumping across the Mediterranean to live in the Maghreb under the French-Algerians or Spaniard-Moroccans.
I think "villainous" would mean from the viewpoint of the British Raj, but to be honest they're openly imperialistic and expansionistic as anybody, just more liberal democratic about it. Come to think of it, perhaps they were better than the Satanist Cannibal Russians in the book, but what made them better than the Caliphate or the Dai-Nippon other than for their skin color?
I think with mainstream novelists such as Stirling or Turtledove, as opposed to amateur fabulists like us or nerdy-niche authors of RPG sourcebooks, it's easier to come up with half a dozen ideas for a fantasy world and have it be already more original than "conventional" fiction. But when nerds like us come together to think the ideas through, we find a lot of ways in which mainstreamers are lacking.
Because this is still the Balkans, and I can't imagine Greeks being overly fond of Serbia. Though, TBH, I didn't think too much into all that. I was originally thinking that the oppression was largely by the Germans/Italians/Hungarians with the Greeks as something of a partner, but more interested in getting the few remaining turks. Come to think of it though, I may have layed the oppression on a bit too strong, didn't I? I was trying to make a pretty good anti-thesis to the Raj but, as others are pointing out, it may not be necessary since the Raj isn't exactly "The Sunny Happy Empire of Freedom" itself.
Russia's stuck in central asia though. How are they going to reach the balkans? Or are we changing that bit? alternatively, we could go with my original idea and just cut out the racist aspect altogether, creating a slightly oppressive upper class that co-opts the local elite in the balkans while being less than kind to the lower classes and is still pretty expansionistic. Methinks that a communist like message might be very popular in the lower classes, making even more chaos...
Really, I'm just throwing random ideas out there and hoping someone will write a TL using them.
The Greeko-Serbian relation were not that bad.
Indeed.
By the way, how will the *HRE view the german and hungarian protestants?
Russia's exile in Central Asia was Stirling's tool to keep the great game even after the Fall and was unrealistic.
Why should the russian elite migrate into a barely controlled desert during a sudden little ice age?
Staying in the non-devasted and humid south-eastern part of the Russian Empire make much more sense.
The last Russo-Turkish War (1877-1878) did just recently end and Russia still occupied significant parts of Ottoman Europe.
It depends really. I would say that the Orthodox-Catholic hybrids would be the state religions, but Protestant faiths might be given some tolerance a la the Oriental Churches in communion with Rome. They would certiainly be seen in a more favorable light than the Hindu-influenced Anglicans or the Islamic-influenced FrenchCatholics, though there might still be some pressure to convert.
Yeah, much more favorable than the Angrezi. I remember that one of the Kings stated that Angrezi theologians have concluded Christ was a variation of some hindu deity, and the purest forms of Christianity in the Raj exist in South Africa and parts of Australia. Maybe the protestant churches, in order to hold some power in this post apocalypse, reenter communion with the Pope? Just a theory.
Something to consider as possible option. Some criminal organizations will rise to become political powers while, some political forces will be forced to become criminal organizations. In Italy, the collapse of a centralized government could allow the Mafia to take control in Sicily, Camorra in Naples, Sacra Corona Unita in Apulia, and 'Ndrangheta in Calabria. Naša Stvar criminal organization can take over in Serbia. Binh Xuyen was a series of pirates that terrorized Indochina in OTL.
In Italy, there is also the legendary Beati Paoli which would act against the efforts of the Church and the State.
Conversely, consider that you can also have the British Royal Navy or French Foreign Legion, without a port to call a permanent home, or a government to provide a steady paycheck, many military personnel will be transformed either into pirates and/or mercenaries. This certainly allows for the characters to maintain a nationalist trait, yet dispersed across the world. This adds the pulp tone of Pirates of the Carribean or the anarchic feel of the When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger....
In Italy, there is also the legendary Beati Paoli which would act against the efforts of the Church and the State.
Conversely, consider that you can also have the British Royal Navy or French Foreign Legion, without a port to call a permanent home, or a government to provide a steady paycheck, many military personnel will be transformed either into pirates and/or mercenaries. This certainly allows for the characters to maintain a nationalist trait, yet dispersed across the world. This adds the pulp tone of Pirates of the Carribean or the anarchic feel of the When Gravity Fails by George Alec Effinger....
Yes the Gulf Stream is going precisely nowhere, its thermal pumps off Equatorial Africa are fine and the North Atlantic Deep Water Formation is driven by cold temperatures (which is why global warming might disrupt it) - a full ice age freezing of the northern seas is going to shut it off. In fact the Gulf Stream is more likely to have stutters in the year or two after the Three Years without Summer as the sea ice shrinks and decreases the northern seas salinity for a bit.
Thus I'd say that while the very bad weather might last longer than elsewhere, it will actually be less severe than similar latitudes in North America or the Asian Interiors due to the Gulf stream staying on and the general warming effect of Europe's seas.
Thus I'd say that while the very bad weather might last longer than elsewhere, it will actually be less severe than similar latitudes in North America or the Asian Interiors due to the Gulf stream staying on and the general warming effect of Europe's seas.
Thought: to keep with the pulpish, neo-classical feel of the original novel, the title of the reborn HRE should be "Caesar." Rather pan-European, don't you think?