Personification of Surviving Kingdom of France

[Philip]

Marianne is an enduring personification and symbol of the French Republic. Who or what takes her place in a surviving French Kingdom? I'm interested in both internal (such as the French government) and external (such as foreign political cartoons) usage.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume that gradual reforms beginning in the mid XVIII lead to a constitutional monarchy.

 

[LSCatilina]

Well, you did have a personification of France before the Revolution as...France. For example, there with the fleurdelysé mantle, top-left. Or there, as an anti-Lafayette cartoon (but not republican)
There's trends to personify France as a state/kingdom as a woman since the Late Middle-Ages, truth to be told, so I think we'll have something close enough to the aformentioned representation.

 

[JonasResende]

Well, you did have a personification of France before the Revolution as...France. For example, there with the fleurdelysé mantle, top-left. Or there, as an anti-Lafayette cartoon (but not republican)
There's trends to personify France as a state/kingdom as a woman since the Late Middle-Ages, truth to be told, so I think we'll have something close enough to the aformentioned representation.

So in all likelihood, Marianne with a fleur-de-lys mantle or a crown and sceptre instead of a tricolor or a Phrygian cap and lictor's bundle then? Or would they perhaps rather use the oriflamme as a cape/standard instead of a sceptre?

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

So in all likelihood, Marianne with a fleur-de-lys mantle or a crown and sceptre instead of a tricolor or a Phrygian cap and lictor's bundle then? Or would they perhaps rather use the oriflamme as a cape/standard instead of a sceptre?

Maybe is the government is willing to keep the heritage of the Revolution AND the Royal historical heritage, they could just do as Greater Romania did : two personnifications sticking together like in this picture :

You have both Wallachia and Moldavia represented, as the two principalities forming Romania. You could have something like this, as a "national reconciliation" symbol

 

[LSCatilina]

So in all likelihood, Marianne with a fleur-de-lys mantle or a crown and sceptre instead of a tricolor or a Phrygian cap and lictor's bundle then? Or would they perhaps rather use the oriflamme as a cape/standard instead of a sceptre?

I'm not sure oriflamme would be an obvious choice, giving that by Modern era, it wasn't that used or really referenced (by the XVIth it already fall into disuse). Maybe a later occurrence or revival, but that's not bound to happen IMO.

 

[LSCatilina]

Maybe is the government is willing to keep the heritage of the Revolution AND the Royal historical heritage, they could just do as Greater Romania did : two personnifications sticking together like in this picture

You mean something like this?

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

You mean something like this?

.... yeah, they might be THIS close but I'm not sure Catholic Church is going to approve

 

[Philip]

There's trends to personify France as a state/kingdom as a woman since the Late Middle-Ages, truth to be told, so I think we'll have something close enough to the aformentioned representation.

Thank you. I had read elsewhere (in perhaps not the most reliable source) that Marianne as a feminine personification of republican France was in opposition to the masculine personification of royal France in the king. It seems that may be overstated.

 

[RightHoJeeves]

Maybe Jeanne d'Arc? Being both a French patriot and a pious Catholic she would suitably capture the spirit of a more conservative, monarchial France.

 

[LSCatilina]

Thank you. I had read elsewhere (in perhaps not the most reliable source) that Marianne as a feminine personification of republican France was in opposition to the masculine personification of royal France in the king. It seems that may be overstated.

Giving that French Revolution tended to sanctuarize a virilist take on politics and history, that would surprise me : that said, there might be something, do you remember which source proposed this?

As for the royal figure : well, it was used IOTL, but not as much as a personnification of France, which was definitely feminine when it was used, but rather as a personification of authority and rule.
In some respect, Marianne is the continuation of previous personifications before the French Revolution.

BTW there's another representation of monarchical France
Or this painting "France giving freedom to America"
Or this one.

All of the seems to share same characteristics : fleudelysé coat and crown

Maybe Jeanne d'Arc? Being both a French patriot and a pious Catholic she would suitably capture the spirit of a more conservative, monarchial France.

She was a really minor figure in the XVIIIth century : a good part of her popularity in France came from the mid-to-late XIXth century where the need of a personality on which all could agree (conservative because of her history, nationalists because of her role, republican by patriotism, social-republican because of her origins, socialists because thinking things thorough is hard) especially after the firm establishment of the IIIrd Republic.

 

[ALF0N53]

Marianne with the sword & shield, and Jeanne D'Arc with the royal banner?

 

[RightHoJeeves]

She was a really minor figure in the XVIIIth century : a good part of her popularity in France came from the mid-to-late XIXth century where the need of a personality on which all could agree (conservative because of her history, nationalists because of her role, republican by patriotism, social-republican because of her origins, socialists because thinking things thorough is hard) especially after the firm establishment of the IIIrd Republic.

True but one imagines that a Bourbon dynasty that successfully reforms and avoids being overthrown is one that acknowledges the need for mass appeal, especially in times of crisis.

The butterflies of no French Revolution are so massive it is difficult to predict exactly how much European warfare would occur in the 19th century but I can still imagine some major war occurring where France coopts Jeanne for propaganda purposes.

 

[LSCatilina]

True but one imagines that a Bourbon dynasty that successfully reforms and avoids being overthrown is one that acknowledges the need for mass appeal, especially in times of crisis.

How Joan of Arc re-emerged as a national personality was really contigential to both a need of national reconciliation after a really politically troubled XIXth and the stress on religiosity in the same period.
There's nothing really pointing, with such a PoD, that she will be bound to fill the role, due to her relative obscurity at the time and the lack of a need of reconciliation figure between conservatives and republican (moderates and social) after a century of revolutions and counter-revolutions : a successful Bourbon reform implies it's butterflied. It's not impossible, but I don't think that's obvious either.

The butterflies of no French Revolution are so massive it is difficult to predict exactly how much European warfare would occur in the 19th century but I can still imagine some major war occurring where France coopts Jeanne for propaganda purposes.

The point being that she didn't re-emerged as a national figure because of war, would it be Franco-Prussian or WW1 as such, but as a political necessity (partly born out of the defeat, granted, but it was a processus happening before).
She could be used. Or Jeanne Hachette. Or any other personality. But it wouldn't have the same impact as IOTL, because it wouldn't have been this rooted (and widely supported) in political culture.

 

[Green Painting]

good part of her popularity in France came from the mid-to-late XIXth century where the need of a personality on which all could agree

Didn’t the communists say things like she was a daughter of a farmer, betrayed by the King, burnt by the priests?

 

[funnyhat]

Giving that French Revolution tended to sanctuarize a virilist take on politics and history, that would surprise me : that said, there might be something, do you remember which source proposed this?

As for the royal figure : well, it was used IOTL, but not as much as a personnification of France, which was definitely feminine when it was used, but rather as a personification of authority and rule.
In some respect, Marianne is the continuation of previous personifications before the French Revolution.

BTW there's another representation of monarchical France
Or this painting "France giving freedom to America"
Or this one.

All of the seems to share same characteristics : fleudelysé coat and crown

Another - "Louis XVIII raising France from its ruins"

 

[Kaze]

You mean something like this?

Looks like Marianne x Joan of Arc? Somehow I ship this?

 

[Philip]

Giving that French Revolution tended to sanctuarize a virilist take on politics and history, that would surprise me : that said, there might be something, do you remember which source proposed this?

I don't remember the source of the top of my head. I might find it my notes. I do recall they placed Marianne's origin as the personification of France in early to mid XIX Century. Prior to that, they argued, the image represented the ideal of Liberty rather than France.

All in all, I felt that is went to far in reading modern thoughts and politics into past events.

 

[EmptyChair]

Another - "Louis XVIII raising France from its ruins"

Jesus, he looks like a rapist trying to tear her clothes off.
Talk about propaganda fail.

 

[LSCatilina]

I don't remember the source of the top of my head. I might find it my notes. I do recall they placed Marianne's origin as the personification of France in early to mid XIX Century. Prior to that, they argued, the image represented the ideal of Liberty rather than France..

While you had a confusion between Liberty, Marianne and Republic (which ended to merge all of these, because why not), "Marianne" or "Maria-Anna" is attested since 1792 (very roughly, these were common feminine names, and the song "La Garison de Marianna" is generally associated with birth of Republican France).

 

[jb3]

In a monarchist France, a female personification will probably be Jeanne D'arc - she is one the symbols of the country embraced by all and even without a Revolution (and ESPECIALLY in a surviving Bourbon Restoration) she would probably be rediscovered in the 1800s by both Church and State (her trial records were only translated from the Latin to French for all to read then IIRC).

Ultimately, though in a surviving French monarchy the personification of France would be whoever the then King was (or if a historical figure is needed Henri IV or St.Louis).