Persian colonial empire

So it would be impossible for a Shia Iran to realistically have an oversea empire without a pod much earlier in history?
Yeah at minimum you'd have to avoid the Mongol apocalypse.

Yah... the destruction of the regional irrigation system kind of stuck the region in a tight population trap via driving so many areas off of agriculture and into husbandry (increasing and maintaining nomadism) and reducing yeilds/population density potential to the point they can't get the labor to rebuild the system. MAYBE you could escape it by managing to bring in and work to death a sufficient number of slaves, but there's a paradox of the chicken and the egg here: mass slave trade like that would require a strong coastal presence and naval tradition to already be in place
 
It's not a question of POD but one of geography; the coastline of Persia is a thin strip of desert pinned up against a mountain range with little in the way of fresh water rivers and high soil salinity (Thus making it garbage for agriculture and, therefore, any kind of high population density). There's very little in the way of "good harbours", even if the isolation from the highlands and lack of local productivity would give them little motivation or means to develop one. As for the north, in theory it's possible but it's going to be an uphill battle: Centeral Asia is by and large an open steppeland with all the political instability and porious borders nomadic populations tend to produce. Without a major obstacle to those movements to fortify and their northern border being so long, any security is going to be temporary and subject to sudden change as tribes move around and conquer one another.

You forgot that at various times in its history, Persia ruled over Iraq including the area around Basra, where the Euphrates and Tigris enter the Persian gulf. They could have used a port located there...
 
You forgot that at various times in its history, Persia ruled over Iraq including the area around Basra, where the Euphrates and Tigris enter the Persian gulf. They could have used a port located there...

And a port in Basra would easily connect to and facilitate the commerce of the Persian heartland... how exactly? The Zargos are just as much of an obstacle unless you move the center of the Empire to Khuzestan/Mesopotamia, which makes holding the majority of the nation you just left highly difficult as well as making the state highly vulnerable by removing it's protective geography and isolating themselves from the tribal populations that provide the core of your military might in the form of light cavalry.
 
IMHO the best way has to do with the Portuguese - either co-opt them in some way, or get finance to develop their own navy as a counter

I'm sure if I read more, I could come up with a more coherent answer - and if anyone can recommend a book on Portugal in Red Sea, Persian Gulf, India etc I'd have a look at buying it
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Iran was invaded back to back many times by various people in different directions. And those were very damaging invasions. Butterfly those invasions away and Iranian colonial empires in India,Southeast Asia,Africa and Americas is very easy.
 
It seems to me that if Muscat/Oman could colonize parts of the eastern African coast, like Zanzibar and I think Mombasa, it's not a huge stretch to imagine the Persians doing something similar.
 
It seems to me that if Muscat/Oman could colonize parts of the eastern African coast, like Zanzibar and I think Mombasa, it's not a huge stretch to imagine the Persians doing something similar.

Omans biggest threat was Persia or European Companies. The former did not even have a decent navy. Oman did not need a strong Army as long as they could repel the Invaders. Persia on the other hand had three possible invaders until the mid 18th century. The need of a strong Army was bigger than Naval expeditions. Populationwise they did not have have too much people either which is necessary if there are constant wars.
 
Many of the colonial empires were build up in an effort to reach India or the Indies. It seems Iran beat many of them to the punch.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Persia like Oman and other countries along the Indian Ocean lacked sailing technology and material to build ships to challenge first the Portuguese then Dutch followed by French/British.

If the Persians were to conquered Oman and build a colonial empire it would be dubjectvyo same fate as Oman did. Defeat at the hands of the Europeans and their colonies taken over.
 
The Zagros are just as much of an obstacle unless you move the center of the Empire to Khuzestan/Mesopotamia, which makes holding the majority of the nation you just left highly difficult as well as making the state highly vulnerable by removing it's protective geography and isolating themselves from the tribal populations that provide the core of your military might in the form of light cavalry.

I have respect for the Zagros. These mighty mountains are as high as the Alps in some places or higher. These are certainly not some small hills. The mountains have an epic and interesting history, with some of the earliest evidence of wine production dating back as far as 5,400BC, in the Neolithic period.

The capital of Sassanid Persia was Ctesiphon in Mesopotamia for four centuries. I have a vague memory they may have spent part of the year in Iran too, although it's been too many years since I studied this period to be sure.
 

Philip

Donor
Do they have to be overseas colonies?

The Sasanians? At their height, they controlled the eastern and southern coasts of Arabia. If they had maintained peace with the Romans, they could have controlled trade in the western Indian Ocean. Trading posts/factories on the eastern coast of Africa and western coastpig India are easy to imagine.
 
The Sasanians? At their height, they controlled the eastern and southern coasts of Arabia. If they had maintained peace with the Romans, they could have controlled trade in the western Indian Ocean. Trading posts/factories on the eastern coast of Africa and western coastpig India are easy to imagine.

See the OP. They're asking about a post-1500 POD, so were talking Safavid, not Sassanid, Persia.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
Would the Safivids have the will or enough power to create and maintain such a colonial empire is the question we need to ask then if we don't want to discuss the things that happened previously.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Would the Safivids have the will or enough power to create and maintain such a colonial empire is the question we need to ask then if we don't want to discuss the things that happened previously.
None of these would have the sailing technology to compete against the Europeans. Look at Oman, it was the most powerful naval force along the African east coast and Arabia and they not only lost their colonies their capital Muscat was conquered.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
None of these would have the sailing technology to compete against the Europeans. Look at Oman, it was the most powerful naval force along the African east coast and Arabia and they not only lost their colonies their capital Muscat was conquered.
At best,they could have set up small colonies in India or somewhere near. Nowhere near to an European colonial empire(it is just due to the turn of events that came before them and not for any other reason).
 
It is possible. Actually, only Australia is possible in this case... or just maybe South Africa...

Requirements:
- No open hostilities with the Ottoman Empire
- Get rid of the Qizilbash ASAP
- Try to fight the Portuguese on Sea for Naval Experience
- Growing Population


If still Shia: you cannot get Sunni's to settle in Australia so your settler numbers are limited as defense of Persia is also necessary.
If they would get colonies anywhere (they wouldn't) it would be Africa. Australia would be totally out of the question.
The capital of Sassanid Persia was Ctesiphon in Mesopotamia for four centuries. I have a vague memory they may have spent part of the year in Iran too, although it's been too many years since I studied this period to be sure.
The Sassanids also spent much of their time losing eastern Iran to steppe nomads
 
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