Persia without the Islamic Conquests

[GeneralInTheShell]

Even without the Islam the Arabs will still migrate out of Arabia, how would this migration (akin to the Germanic and Slavic migrations in Europe) into Iraq effect a feudalistic Sassanian Empire? Might Mesopotamia break away?

 

[Pachac]

Even without the Islam the Arabs will still migrate out of Arabia, how would this migration (akin to the Germanic and Slavic migrations in Europe) into Iraq effect a feudalistic Sassanian Empire? Might Mesopotamia break away?

The Arabs will likely be utilized by Iraqi states in order to settle them to replace populations which have been depleted as well as a source of slave labor. There is a lot of evidence for human trafficking following the plagues of the 540s because humans were in short supply, and the Arabs would have likely been a huge boon to these states. In some areas they will likely mingle with or replace the local populations.

 

[Roberto]

EDIT: Nevermind, I get it now.

What would likely states in Persia look like if the Sassinid dynasty collapses?

 

[Malta]

India? I am not so sure about that. Geography placement kind of favors moving into Persia. What made the India area more chaotic then a collapsing Sassanid state?

 

[Pachac]

So what exactly is stopping the Arabs from having another go at Persia while it's divided?

I'm going to assume that in this case we're using the PoD I suggested regarding a collapse during the Ridda wars. The problem, then, is that there is a lack of any real centralized army marching on the Iraqi lands. One of the great advantages of the Arab Caliphate was that the Arabs did not take their families with them; that only came later, after the areas had been conquered. Essentially, if the Arabs stay divided into small tribes, the impetus for expansion will still be there, but it will not be cohesive by any means. This allows local rulers to use the small numbers of Arabs that go into their territory as local manpower and settled labourers. Of course, this will turn on them and the flood of Arabs will not be contained, but this will not be the case everywhere. Southern Iraq will likely be heavily settled, but there won't be a full collapse of authority as there was, for example, in the Roman Empire or Post-Roman Britain.

Assuming that the Prophetess Sajah invades the Persian Empire; well, the state still has some years left. While it corroded after the disaster of Qadisya, without such able commanders and organization as imposed by Abu Bakr, Khaled ibn-al Walid, or Umar, Sajah will not be able to score the same decisive victories. Before the Sassanid state passes into history, probably after the organized Arab threat has passed, they will settle these defeated Arabs in Mesopotamia. It is quite likely that the area of Iraq will have a joint Arab-Aramaic heritage, but nothing like what happened in OTL.

India? I am not so sure about that. Geography placement kind of favors moving into Persia. What made the India area more chaotic then a collapsing Sassanid state?

I am not too sure about that. The route into India via the Balkh-Kabul-Peshawar corridor is very weakly defended, if at all, at this point in history. The way there is quite rich by itself in raiding. Meanwhile, Persia is not actually that accessible. The only way to really enter Persia is the corridor leading from Qom to Rayy and Khorasan. This areas was quite populated and well-defended, even at the time of the Sassanid collapse. The Gurgan area is practically devoid of people, and Mazandaran is sub-tropical rain forest, hardly suited for Turkish cavalrymen. Following the collapse of Harsha's empire and the lack of any strong governance in India at the time after him, there does not seem to be much opposition, especially considering the Turkish advantage of Horses. I can see Turkish settlement in the areas around Khorasan and Merv, where they were already well-established, but further encroachment is stopped by the Dash-e-lut and the strongly defended east-west corridor.

EDIT: Nevermind, I get it now.

What would likely states in Persia look like if the Sassinid dynasty collapses?

It's kind of a blind spot in the understanding of Sassanid Persia. We know that the Sawad, that is, the area of Central Iraq, was under Royal control. Sakastan was ruled by a powerful noble family. House Mihran controlled the Rayy corridor from east to west, and perhaps Qom as well. A branch of the family controlled Armenia and Azerbaijian. There were a few others, but I need to dig some info on them. There were also the smaller assorted lords and the nobles.

It seems big houses were Sakastan, the Mihran who controlled the lands I mentioned, Carmania(Kerman), The House of Karen which controlled Gorgan, Adiabene in Mesopotamia, Abarshahr in East Khorasan, and a few others I'm not too sure about. Suffice it to say that it was a mess.

 

[Malta]

I wonder, I wonder. A eastern march lord allies with the Turks to march Westward and instal himself as King. It happened with Kavadh (though Kadvh technically was already Shahnashah but exiled).

 

[Pachac]

I wonder, I wonder. A eastern march lord allies with the Turks to march Westward and instal himself as King. It happened with Kavadh (though Kadvh technically was already Shahnashah but exiled).

It could be quite possible. The influence of such states as Byzantium, the Arabs, and the Turks will likely be massively important to the installation of new rulers, much like it was in the later middle east. The sanctity of the royal line, however, may mean that such actions will generally stay within those who are pretenders or deposed heirs, at least when it comes to the Shah; on a smaller scale it will probably be a possible prospect. With the Turks, too, comes their influence as soldiers throughout the state.

 

[Malta]

A balkanization event would probably encourage the Turkic Migration all the same with those bordering the Turks hiring them as soldiers, and even those who do not border the Turks could entice the Turks to attack their rivals, etc etc.

 

[Elfwine]

A balkanization event would probably encourage the Turkic Migration all the same with those bordering the Turks hiring them as soldiers, and even those who do not border the Turks could entice the Turks to attack their rivals, etc etc.

Hiring the Turks as soldiers doesn't mean "complete with families" automatically, especially away from the border or especially depopulated areas

Why the "And Turks overrun Persia, yay"?

 

[Malta]

Hiring the Turks as soldiers doesn't mean "complete with families" automatically, especially away from the border or especially depopulated areas

Why the "And Turks overrun Persia, yay"?

It would be more likely they would take local wives.

To secure Turkic dominance of course. Then on to Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome. The Turkic Civilization must flourish, out of the shadow of the Iranian and Romani. Then to the West the Imazigh may rise and flourish on the southern coast of the Med.

 

[Elfwine]

It would be more likely they would take local wives.

To secure Turkic dominance of course. Then on to Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Rome. The Turkic Civilization must flourish, out of the shadow of the Iranian and Romani. Then to the West the Imazigh may rise and flourish on the southern coast of the Med.

. . . because . . .

reasons, I'm sure.

But why, from the perspective of alternate history and not cultural preferences, do you think this is so especially viable/interesting?

 

[Malta]

. . . because . . .

reasons, I'm sure.

But why, from the perspective of alternate history and not cultural preferences, do you think this is so especially viable/interesting?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Someone has to take up the slack for the Turks since Abdul got banned.

Rolling back Persian Civilization and allowing Turkic Civilization to progress seems interesting to me. Especially in terms of different social and religious practices that could arise to take the place that Islam had (Tengriism, Mani, Nestorius Christianity). Turkic Civilization in OTL was heavily influenced by Islam when it reached its glorious periods.

My Eternal Blue Sky TL's whole point is to explore this.

 

[Elfwine]

MUWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Someone has to take up the slack for the Turks since Abdul got banned.

Rolling back Persian Civilization and allowing Turkic Civilization to progress seems interesting to me. Especially in terms of different social and religious practices that could arise to take the place that Islam had (Tengriism, Mani, Nestorius Christianity). Turkic Civilization in OTL was heavily influenced by Islam when it reached its glorious periods.

My Eternal Blue Sky TL's whole point is to explore this.

Not sure that Turks conquering Persia is the best way to do that, given how much nomadic conquerors of Persia picked up from Persia.

It seems like Turkic civilization would do better developing to a level where Persian art (etc.) isn't adopted than being surrounded by Persian influences on any level more sophisticated than raiding and rutting.

 

[Malta]

Not sure that Turks conquering Persia is the best way to do that, given how much nomadic conquerors of Persia picked up from Persia.

It seems like Turkic civilization would do better developing to a level where Persian art (etc.) isn't adopted than being surrounded by Persian influences on any level more sophisticated than raiding and rutting.

That is why I added a religious counter-balance which included iconoclastic behaviors.

 

[Herzen's love-child]

It seems that the more successful Turkish polities were inevitably influenced by the major cultures they conquered.
Ottomans by the Byzantines
Seljuks by the Persians
Delhi Sultanate by both the Persians and Indians.
Göktürks by China
to cite a few.

Everyone who had conquered or otherwise came to live in Persia or lands that had a dominant Persian culture came out of the experience to varying degrees Perso-fied. Ask the Caliphate Arabs, Khwarezmids, Ilkhans, Timurids, Moguls, etc.

 

[Elfwine]

Even iconoclastic ideas aren't going to eliminate all such influence - there's also written language, and adopting Persian - outright or in part - is extremely tempting for nomadic conquerors.

For the rulers, it makes absorbing the existing system easier, for the majority, it makes dealing with their neighbors easier.

You could probably get a more Turkic flavor to the mix, but I think something like how Norman morphed into Anglo-Norman to the new English would happen only more so.

 

[Dfront21]

The invasions were irrelevant since Zoroastrians disappeared as a minority in the late 8th-early 9th century. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here?

It's a well-known fact that Zorastrianism was propped up mostly by the state and had little vitality on its own.

Not sure where you are getting your info. Zoroastrians were an important and Influential minority up until Genghis shows up. The demographic death blow came at the hands of the Mongols and their Turkish brethren,with official persecution only ending in the 19th century.

 

[Pachac]

Not sure where you are getting your info. Zoroastrians were an important and Influential minority up until Genghis shows up. The demographic death blow came at the hands of the Mongols and their Turkish brethren,with official persecution only ending in the 19th century.

Do you really want me to cite the various academic and Iranian sources which have provided the information for this? There was no demographic blow at the hands of the Mongols; Zoroastrians cease to exist as a notable minority in the 9th-10th century in most areas except Yazd.

And no King Of Malta I'm not yielding to dumb Turkic domination fantasies.

 

[Dfront21]

After re-evaluating my sources, I've basically realized that the Sassanid state was over. Every single noble was carving out land for himself. The Turks had broken the marcher lords when Xusro had died and every single heir to the throne had been annihilated. Khazars raided the northwest. The very fabric of the state had been irreversibly shattered and there was no chance for any real survival. Xusro's heir died in a plague which wiped out a significant amount of Western Persia's population, and the maintenance of the canals ceased, causing much of Iraq to turn into infertile swamp.

There are only two possible courses of actions. Revolution or collapse.

Thats correct. The Sassanid state was in a the middle of a civil war by the time the Arabs invaded. You should read Touraj Daryaee for a very detailed account in English

 

[Pachac]

Thats correct. The Sassanid state was in a the middle of a civil war by the time the Arabs invaded. You should read Touraj Daryaee for a very detailed account in English

Hmm, I haven't heard too much about him. Looked him up, sounds really interesting though. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try to search him up on Amazon.