Persia Enters the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War on the Russian Side

CaliGuy

Banned
What if Persia entered the 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War on the Russian side?

How well would Persia have performed on the battlefield?

Also, what would Persia have acquired at the peace talks?

In addition to this, how would this have affected Ottoman-Persian relations and events in the Middle East in the years and decades to come?

Any thoughts on all of this?
 
What would cause Persia to do this? Afaik she had suffered at Russian hands just as much as Turkey.

As for her battlefield performance, probably nothing special. The Turks gave a good account of themselves even against the Russians, and Persia ain't in the same league. If lucky she might get a village or two in Armenia for her trouble.
 
What would cause Persia to do this? Afaik she had suffered at Russian hands just as much as Turkey.

As for her battlefield performance, probably nothing special. The Turks gave a good account of themselves even against the Russians, and Persia ain't in the same league. If lucky she might get a village or two in Armenia for her trouble.

Persia was under heavy Russian influence at this time. While Persia and Russia were in conflict at times, and the former certainly resented the power of the latter, their relationship shows nothing like the structural, lasting enmity that existed between Russia and the Ottomans. So Persia might chose to enter. OTOH, the Persian army was not in a very good shape to say the least. Their chance is that most of the Ottoman forces are tied to fight Russia.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
She gains the Basra Vilayet and suzerainty over al-Hasa east coast Arabia?

I don't think Persia could *earn* the land with her own military, but if making an effort and favored in the settlement, it could happen.

However, I don't know if both Russia and Britain would be agreeable to Persian expansion at the same time.
 
Persia wins some hinterland, but that's about it. Russia has little to gain by bringing Persia into the conflict.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What would cause Persia to do this? Afaik she had suffered at Russian hands just as much as Turkey.

Weren't Persia and the Ottomans historically hostile to each other, though?

Also, I suppose that the Persian Shah might want to put as many Shiites as possible during his rule; indeed, that could be a good motivation for a Persian declaration of war on the Ottomans. Basically, think of a Shiite version of, say, German unification or Italian unification.

As for her battlefield performance, probably nothing special. The Turks gave a good account of themselves even against the Russians, and Persia ain't in the same league.

Couldn't fighting against both Russia and Persia strain Ottoman resources?

If lucky she might get a village or two in Armenia for her trouble.

What about in the Middle East? Specifically, which parts of Iraq--if any--would Persia acquire after the war in this TL?

I think this could make a League of Three Emperors more feasible in the long term.

Why exactly do you say that?

She gains the Basra Vilayet and suzerainty over al-Hasa east coast Arabia?

Sounds reasonable--as least with a sufficiently good victory of the Russo-Persians in this war.

However, Persian control over al-Hasa could trigger a future war between Persia and the House of Saud. :(

I don't think Persia could *earn* the land with her own military, but if making an effort and favored in the settlement, it could happen.

So basically, Russia would use her own military successes on the battlefield as bargaining chips to get Persia something in the post-war peace settlement?

However, I don't know if both Russia and Britain would be agreeable to Persian expansion at the same time.

Why exactly wouldn't they be?

Persia wins some hinterland, but that's about it. Russia has little to gain by bringing Persia into the conflict.

Hinterland where exactly?

If Persia is really that bad militarly, could we see thrm actually crumble?

Frankly, I suspect that Russia will directly militarily prop up Persia if push comes to shove and the worst happens.
 
If Persia is really that bad militarly, could we see thrm actually crumble?

I doubt it. The Ottoman military is more than superior to that of Persia (after all, the Ottoman Empire almost beat Russia), but as far as it's concerned, Russia is the most important theatre, and Persia is little more than an irrelevant sideshow. And so, making real advances isn't really a major goal.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I doubt it. The Ottoman military is more than superior to that of Persia (after all, the Ottoman Empire almost beat Russia), but as far as it's concerned, Russia is the most important theatre, and Persia is little more than an irrelevant sideshow. And so, making real advances isn't really a major goal.
Completely agreed.
 

Ope

Banned
I doubt it, you ever heard about the russo-Persian War? And you are wrong out of all 12 russo-Turkish wars, turks won only 2, and only diplomaticly
 
I doubt it. The Ottoman military is more than superior to that of Persia (after all, the Ottoman Empire almost beat Russia), but as far as it's concerned, Russia is the most important theatre, and Persia is little more than an irrelevant sideshow. And so, making real advances isn't really a major goal.

Um. Not sure when this became accepted wisdom, but 1877/78 was a comprehensive defeat for the Ottomans (the only way it could be more comprehensive is if Constantinople itself was taken), and they never looked like winning at all. The idea that they "almost won" was probably born right here on AH.com and presupposes the Ottomans getting a whole bunch of things right which they did not OTL.

In fact the Ottomans hadn't been in any danger of winning against Russia since the Pruth campaign, excepting the Crimean war, where they for some reason needed the French to wholly commit on their side.

I do appreciate the research that went into the 1878 Ottoman Victory hypothetical, but it's not particularly more likely than French victory in the Franco-Prussian war, and I'm being quite generous here.
 
OTL the War was a huge Russian victory. See the treaty of San Stefano. There might have been a time when the Ottomans werent doing that badly but the end was total collapse.
 
OTL the War was a huge Russian victory. See the treaty of San Stefano. There might have been a time when the Ottomans werent doing that badly but the end was total collapse.

This isn't to say that they couldn't have won at all, only that it would need a lot more to go right for them than people here usually claim. Even if they manage to relieve the siege of Pleven (with the one corps still available to them), the Russians and allies have enough troops to try again. The war in the Caucasus went badly for the Ottomans too.
 
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