Persia Defeats The Arabs (scenario)

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Khazars might not convert to Judaism this time around. One of the reasons they did (supposedly) was because Judaism was a common denominator of sorts between Islam and Christianity. With no extensive contact with the Muslims, they might convert to Christianity or Zoroastrianism, maybe. Judaism and Islam still remain possibilities, though I'd expect Islam to be more likely still.

Possibly, and good point. However, I think the Khazars chose Judaism because they did not want to be puppets of either Byzantium or the Caliphate - here they would be squeezed between a stronger Byzantium and a formidable Persia - and I would give Persia far more cultural gravitas than early Islam.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

It is the old quarrell: in OTL the conflict with islam destroyed the Visigoth kingdom in Spain, almost destroyed Byzantium and in general forced the population on the Mediterranean shores to migrate toward the interior. OTOH, the contacts with Islam were important to bring back the classics, which otherwise might have been lost.
A scenario of much lesser (and much more successful) conflict would have beneficial effects for sure, in particular for Italy, Provence and Spain.
The eastern empire would have been able to consolidate, and to recover Anatolia (and possibly Syria and Palestine). Lesser pressure on the south front would also mean better overall situation in the balkans and in Southern Italy.
TTL would have much greater continuity with the classical times, and possibly completely avoid the dark ages. Even the Vikings would have met stronger states (in particular in France), and they would have been more inclined to migrate toward Russia.
I would not know if this might have been a better world (define "better" ): for sure it would have been a very different one

The Eastern Empire would never have lost Anatolia - they didn't historically until the Seljuks arrived, and that won't happen the same way in this scenario - the Seljuks came through the Persian sphere, so they are Zoroastrian in this TL. (Or still pagan?)

 

[MerryPrankster]

If the Seljuks migrated into Persia in TTL (assuming they can overrun it as they did in OTL), them becoming Zoroastrian is a distinct possiblity. However, if things go differently (as they probably will), you could butterfly the Seljuk dynasty away entirely or have them convert to a different faith (Nestorian Christianity, Buddhism, Manicheanism).

 

[Tetsu]

The Seljuks, nor any Turks, won't be overrunning anyone anytime soon. I'm pretty sure that in this TL there won't be any kind of Turkish Empire unless it's based out of Central Asia. And the Romans won't be losing Anatolia.

 

[Tetsu]

Part Two (651-700)

Here's part 2 of the timeline.

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651- Shah Khosrau II dies in his sleep, at the very old age of 61. He is succeeded by his eldest son, Kavadh II.

652- Khazaria becomes an independant state.

653- King Chindaswinth of the Visigoths dies, as does Caliph Uthman ibn Affan.

654- The Arabs begin to regain strength. Some Muslims leave Arabia to sub-Saharan Africa to convert the tribes there.

655- On Great Britain, the Battle of Winwaed takes place between Mercian and Northumbrian forces. The battle is a major defeat for the Mercians. Also, Clovis II of the Franks dies, and is succeeded by his son, Clotaire III.

656- Northumbria annexes Mercia, and kills the Mercian king Peada.

657- Turkic nomads attack China, and are quickly defeated.

658- King Samo dies, and his union of Slavic tribes falls apart. Upon his death, Frankish forces make an expedition into the former kingdom.

659- A Mercian revolt in Northumbria is squelched soon after the newly proclaimed Mercian king, Wulfhere, is killed by Northumbrian troops.

660- Childeric II proclaimed king of Austrasia.

663- The Romans invade southern Italy.

665- Frankish troops fully annex the lands of Samo's former kingdom.

668- Childeric II of Frankia is succeeded by Clotaire III.

670- Clotaire III dies. Childeric II becomes king and unites all
three Frankish kingdoms.

672- King Reccaswinth of Visigothica dies, and is succeeded by Wamba.

673- King Childeric II dies, and civil war breaks out in Frankia.

674- Muslim trading centers are established in Africa. The Arabs have been converting the locals, and have been achieving much
success.

675- Northumbria invades Kent.

680- Bulgar nomads clash with Roman troops on Rome's northern frontiers.

681- More Bulgar raids on Roman territory.

685- Pict forces attack Northumbria, resulting in the Battle of Nechtansmere. The battle is a descisive Northumbrian victory.

686- The Kingdom of Kent is conquered by Northumbria. Also, Sussex converts to Christianity.

687- Raids on Sussex carried out by Northumbria.

688- The Bulgarians suffer major defeats at the hands of the Romans.

689- Northumbrian expeditions into Scotland.

690- Begining of the Zhou dynasty in China.

691- Clovis III takes the throne of Frankia.

693- Northumbria annexes Sussex.

695- Sigeheard succeeds Sebbi as the king of Essex.

697- Paolo Anafesto elected first Doge of Venice.

698- Zhen dynasty established in northern Korea.

699- Further Muslim incursions into sub-Saharan Africa.

700- Population explosion in China. Some of the first large
population centers result from this.
-----------

There ya go. One thing I can say about this installment is that the dynastic lists for Europe need to be researched a little bit more; hopefully I'll post a comprehendible list soon. Comments? Suggestions?

 

[DuQuense]

In 627, a war with Byzantium left the Sassanian Persian Empire in tatters. The Shah, Khosrau II, was excecuted after the Byzantines won the war. The climactic final battle at Nineveh broke the back of the Persian fighting power

Is this the Battle that the Persians won on the First Day, with the Romans withdrawing in Panic, & the Persians breacking into hundreds of small groups to pursue. With the Romans regrouping the Second Day, Defeating the Persians in Detail. Then ravageing the Country so Bad, that when the Arabs invaded 20 yers later there were ten year old trees growing in the Streets of the towns.

If So then all you need is a POD where the Persians stay organized

 

[Tetsu]

Is this the Battle that the Persians won on the First Day, with the Romans withdrawing in Panic, & the Persians breacking into hundreds of small groups to pursue. With the Romans regrouping the Second Day, Defeating the Persians in Detail. Then ravageing the Country so Bad, that when the Arabs invaded 20 yers later there were ten year old trees growing in the Streets of the towns.

If So then all you need is a POD where the Persians stay organized

The POD is the Battle of Nineveh. It is a draw, but the Persians retain enough strength to hold off the Romans, and Shah Khosrau II makes peace. In OTL, the Romans sacked Ctesiphon, the Persian capital, and killed Khosrau. This lead to a long string of pretenders and child kings until their conquest by the Arabs. In the ATL, Khosrau lives to re-strengthen Persia and rebuff the Arabs.

Any comments on part 2?

 

[Xen]

So far so good. Looking forward to Part III

 

[Anthony Appleyard]

Islam in sub-Saharan Africa will have to manage without horses and camels, because of the nagana pest disease carried by the tsetse fly.

 

[Hierophant]

This was a good tl Tetsu, why havent you continued it?

 

[Tetsu]

I realized the scope and difficulty of a timeline of this type and the amount of research is needed to do it well. I decided to work on some more recent areas of history, and I'm nearing completion on a timeline or two. Once I can consolidate my other projects, timelines, and stories, I'll try and go back to this one; it's still incredibly interesting to me.

Thanks for your interest, though.

 

[eschaton]

Hey tetsu-katana,

I found this book online whilst I was looking for information on the possibility of Buddhist Turks. It has some fascinating detail about the interactions between the Buddhists, Manichaeists, Zorostrians, Jews, Nestorians, and others in Central Asia. It seems possible that different branches of the Turks could have become any one of these religions. Central asian history from this period fascinates me, because it's so not well known, and so religiously polygot, it seems like AH already.

 

[Hermanubis]

This was a good tl

Yes, very interesting.

< I can resurrect as many dead threads as I like, for I have a power…>

 

[Constantinople]

I know this is like a year old, but does anyone want to maybe kinda continue it?

 

[Emperor Qianlong]

Heh, I agree, this is interesting. I was a bit surprised at first how the Persians survived and how they remained so strong... but, it turned out to have been explained fairly well.

After this happened another thread earlier today, I think maybe I should start reading things more thoroughly, and perhaps wait before more people have posted before I start claiming something is borderline ASB...

 

[Ran Exilis]

That can be addressed later, as I suggested earlier there can be a schism between the Greek Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church. The Coptic's dominate North Africa, Syria, and Palestine. Perhaps they get support of Rome in the schism.

Actually there was no lasting schism between Rome and the Greek Orthodox Church before 1054, and although there were earlier conflicts between the Greek and Roman Churches, that did not prevent them from sticking together againest the largely Monophysite Coptic Church.

The Coptic Christology was later redefined, and was since then no longer actually Monophysite.
But even then, the still unified Greco-Roman Catholic Church continued rejecting the teachings of the Coptic Church.

...then I'd imagine that the Assassins would be a notorious Zoroastrian sect.

That's an issue similar to trying to create an Islamic Spain-clone in a TL without Islam - it's just not gonna work, for obvious reasons.

There could be an interesting Zoroastrian sect popping up here at some point in time, but the chances
that it would bear any even remotely clear resemblance to the OTL Assassins are almost astronomically small.

 

[Tocomocho]

That's an issue similar to trying to create an Islamic Spain-clone in a TL without Islam - it's just not gonna work, for obvious reasons.

Well, Visigoth Spain faced constant civil wars, religion disputes and independentist movements on the north, and it never fell in a 'Dark Age', unlike other Germanic kingdoms. So there were actually a few similarities with Muslim Spain at all.