Perpetual Brightness: Surviving Southern Ming

Faeelin

Banned
When I have time, ya.

I'm thinking about doing it in a broader brushstrokes of hitsory sort of thing, rather than the way it is here.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Journeys to the West: The Han in Europe

Given the newfound interest in Europe on the part of the Ming and Qing dynasties, it should come as no surprise that by 1670 there were several Chinese travelling across Europe. Two of them have left writings that have survived to the present day, and played, in their own ways, a profound influence on the development of the Twin Dynsaties and Europe.

The first, known as Wang Fuzhi, was an official at the Ming Court in Nanjing, whose memoirs, entitled Dreaming Among Barbarians, recounts his thoughts on travel throughout Northwestern Europe. Wang Fuzhi visited Holland during the Franco-Dutch War of the 1670s, and many of his comments were based on his puzzlement at the success of the Dutch system.

“The Dutch,” he wrote, “were once a disparate group of people, consisting of fishers and traders. Yet they have managed to build an empire that reaches to the borders of the Middle Kingdom? How have they managed this?”

Their success, he argued, were due to the way their country was governed. Wang Fuzhi’s discussion began by discussing how the Dutch were once ruled by the king of Spain. Yet when the King of Spain infringed upon their customs and rites, and forbade their worship of Heaven according to their customs, they revolted.

However, the armies of the King of Spain were vast, and much of Holland was overrun [1]. Yet the Dutch rallied, and their righteous scholars and gentry appointed a military leader, who ruled with certain powers in concert with the will of the people. Thus in Wang Fuzhi’s writings William of Orange became a Confucian Sage, guarding his people out of piety and a sense of righteousness.

The work was also an implicit criticism of Ming practices, and compared the Dutch Stadtholders to the Sons of Heaven. “Thus,” he wrote, “we see that a leader who has won the people’s hearts can triumph in any situation; yet a king who turns away from the people will lose his throne.” Furthermore, whereas by the end the Emperor only heard what his ministers would wish for him to hear, the ears of the Stadtholders were constantly bombarded for cries for justice. Yet had not Confucius said that two frank ministers were worth more than a thousand chariots?


[1] He doesn’t quite get that Holland and the Netherlands are not synonymous.
 

Hendryk

Banned
The first, known as Wang Fuzhi, was an official at the Ming Court in Nanjing, whose memoirs, entitled Dreaming Among Barbarians, recounts his thoughts on travel throughout Northwestern Europe.
Nice to see Wang Fuzhi show up. Back when I was getting acquainted with Chinese philosophy, I read François Jullien's Process or Creation, which uses Wang Fuzhi's works as an introduction to Chinese cosmology in general (though that book has later been criticized by Jean-François Billeter, another Sinologist).
 

Faeelin

Banned
Nice to see Wang Fuzhi show up. Back when I was getting acquainted with Chinese philosophy, I read François Jullien's Process or Creation, which uses Wang Fuzhi's works as an introduction to Chinese cosmology in general (though that book has later been criticized by Jean-François Billeter, another Sinologist).

Of all the people who wrote about the implications of the Ming-Qing cataclysm, he has to be my favorite. So what better place to send him than Holland?

I plan on doing a brief visit on a Qing mandarin's visit to the court of Louix XIV; any ideas on things he'd find weird?

Fortyseven: As they get there, and as the spirit moves me.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Yet not all Chinese are as enthusiastic about the culture of Europe. Michael Shen Fuzong, an emissary of the Qing and a Catholic convert, also traveled across much of Europe through the 1680s. He came away disturbed by much of what he saw in Europe, and warned of the dangers Europeans posed in his work “Journey to the West”.

Michael was a Christian, but he found himself immensely disturbed by the religious strife in Europe, which the Jesuits had always done their best to downplay. “The Europeans,” he wrote, “spend their days arguing over the nature of the Lord on High; and if anyone should disagree with the beliefs of their sovereign, he is exiled or killed. How they can call themselves followers of the Lord is a marvel to myself, yet they see no contradiction”.

Michael was particularly disturbed by what he sees in France, where Louis XIV reigns. He found the king’s attitude towards the Hugenots who were, Michael believed, loyal and industrious subjects of the king. Yet because of a theological dispute, they were being exiled to the realms of his enemies. Michael was also critical of Louis’s wars, and considered him as another Qin Shi Huang.

Yet, at the end, for Michael it came back for the Hugenots. If the Pope will endorse their suppression, what will his attitude be towards Christians in China? If reading the Word of Heaven without a priest is dangerous, what will the Pope do about Christians in China who venerate their ancestors?

Nevertheless, by the 1680s a growing number of Chinese are traveling throughout Europe, particularly to Amsterdam.

After all, the Ming Court needs to keep a proper eye on the heavens, and everyone knows that the Dutch make excellent astronomers….
 

Hendryk

Banned
I plan on doing a brief visit on a Qing mandarin's visit to the court of Louix XIV; any ideas on things he'd find weird?
You were spot on about the puzzlement that Chinese visitors will experience about the obsession with religious orthodoxy, which is a mirror image of the puzzlement of Western visitors to China since the days of Willem of Rubroeck (who was amazed to find all those different faiths coexisting peacefully in the Khan's capital during the Yuan dynasty).

Apart from that he may make interesting comparisons between the court etiquette in Versailles and the one back home; presumably he'll take all the punctilious rules and the scheming in stride. He may, however, be less than impressed by the state of Western medicine at the time, and especially its weird theoretical framework. Philosophically, he'll probably find Cartesianism so much hot air, especially the body/soul dualism which is entirely at odds with the Chinese conception. But it would be quite interesting to have him meet Leibniz, who spent the years 1672 to 1676 in Paris: imagine Gottfried being explained the Yijing by one of its greatest commentators; it may not influence just his later works on binary calculus but his whole philosophy as well.
 

Faeelin

Banned
He may, however, be less than impressed by the state of Western medicine at the time, and especially its weird theoretical framework.

The Ming-Qing transition is actually a really great era for reexamining a lot of Chinese thought, as the old order fell apart briefly.

Philosophically, he'll probably find Cartesianism so much hot air, especially the body/soul dualism which is entirely at odds with the Chinese conception.

Is it? Buddhism seperates the two, as does Islam.

But it would be quite interesting to have him meet Leibniz, who spent the years 1672 to 1676 in Paris: imagine Gottfried being explained the Yijing by one of its greatest commentators; it may not influence just his later works on binary calculus but his whole philosophy as well.

Ooh boy. This occurred to me as well, but I have no clue. Any takers in the peanut gallery?

Shen Fuzong, BTW, was a real character; he was received at the court of Louis XIV and JAmes II, and worked at Oxford for a couple of years.

No clue what he did there, alas.
 
Are you intending to trigger off a rapid spread of Christanity into China? Perhaps with a protestant Ming and a Catholic Qing China? And how would a more open China play out on world history , especially with the British and French intrests in India?
 

Faeelin

Banned
Are you intending to trigger off a rapid spread of Christanity into China? Perhaps with a protestant Ming and a Catholic Qing China? And how would a more open China play out on world history , especially with the British and French intrests in India?

France and Britain aren't that involved yet; Plassey is still about 70 years away, after all.

It's relatively Rapid, but it's not Catholic, or won't be. And remember... for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.
 
France and Britain aren't that involved yet; Plassey is still about 70 years away, after all.

It's relatively Rapid, but it's not Catholic, or won't be. And remember... for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Only just found this thread, as it got bumped up.

Lovely work. Lovely.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Beijing, March, 1668

The sun had long since set, but the Kangxi Emperor was still up, drinking tea with his grandmother. He had chatted amiably with her about the weather, her health, and all the other things one should, before coming to the point.

“Grand Empress Dowager”, he asked, “why did you refuse to have you birthday celebrated by the court?” he asked.

The Grand Empress Dowager smirked as she sipped her tea. “I’m an old woman!” she said. “Why should I celebrate that I’m one year closer to death?”

The Kangxi Emperor smiled, and then spoke. “You and I know that’s not the true reason.”

“Perhaps,” she agreed while a servant poured more tea. She paused for a moment and said, “It would be an undue hardship for the people. The people of this city already go hungry. It was fed by the Grand Canal, and now the south is under the control of the Ming loyalists.” [1] She sighed. “Now Oboi wants to go back to war, when we still do not have control over the north. How will we win the loyalty of the people this way?”

The Kangxi Emperor nodded. “The policies of Oboi are not helping.” He paused. “Did you hear what happened in Shandong?”

The Dowager Empress scowled. “Who hasn’t? The regents trusted a corrupt Manchu official over a hundred scholars who submitted a protest after mourning my son.” She closed her eyes for a moment, and quoted the report. “In the service of the Illustrious Son of Heaven, eighty Ming loyalists have been executed, and their property confiscated. This will, we hope, help to make up the deficit in tax revenues and strengthen the state.” The Dowager Empress scowled.

“So you agree with me, Grandmother?” asked the Kangxi Emperor.

The Grand Dowager Empress stared at the boy before her. He was only fourteen years old [2], yet he already wanted to avenge his father. And her son.

She leaned back in her chair, and sighed. “I am an old woman from the steppes, adrift in the intrigue of a Han court. But you are my grandson. All that I can do, I will.”



[1] OTL the Grand Dowager Empress refused to have her birthday celebrated for the same reason.

[2] Thirteen by our standards; You were one years old when you were born in China’s system.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Hebei, August 1668

Oboi smiled as he rolled rolled over in the silk sheets that covered his bed at the Imperial hunting lodge north of Beijing. To smooth ties between the Son of Heaven and his regent, the Grand Empress Dowager had suggested they take a hunting trip together, and as a filial son the Kangxi Emperor had readily agreed. The two of them journeyed with a procession to an Imperial hunting lodge north of Beijing, and for several days the Kangxi Emperor had been properly respectful to him, agreeing with everything Oboi said.

How wonderful, Oboi thought, that the Son of Heaven had no clue that his father’s death had been intentional. Perhaps there was hope for him yet.

It took him a moment before he realized that something was wrong. The lodge was silent, as if no one was around. There were no servants in his room waiting to serve him breakfast, or people in the courtyard bustling to and fro.

Still groggy, Oboi rubbed his eyes. “Did they forget me?” he asked. His concerns were put aside as a servant came in with a bowl of rice. Shrugging, he picked up chopsticks and ate quickly before heading to the courtyard.

When Oboi walked there, he saw the Kangxi Emperor astride a horse, smiling. “So what are we hunting today, Your Illustrious Majesty?” he asked.

The Kangxi Emperor smiled. “Apparently there has been some trouble with wolves in the region. I have decided that today is the day to deal with them.”

Oboi grunted. “If you wish,” he said, looking around. He suddenly noticed that none of the men who wee there were Manchu or bannermen. “Where did my men go?” he asked.

The Kangxi Emperor drew an arrow, and fingered its tip. “My father died hunting, didn’t he?”

And then it clicked. “Why do you ask, Your Illustrious Majesty?” he asked slowly.

“Oh, just curious,” he said. “I thought I would speak with a wolf before I killed it.”

It was then that Oboi understood. “So, this is how it is?”

The Kangxi Emperor smiled. “What? I am going hunting.” He drew the bow. “I will even give my prey a sporting chance, and count to a hundred.”

Oboi hesitated, and ran towards the forest. He heard the emperor call out “One” behind him.

Oboi ran through the gate, moving surprisingly quickly for his old age. ”Twenty.”

And then he felt the arrow puncture his chest, and staggered to the ground.

“One hundred.”

There was silence, as the body of the man who had ruled half of China poured blood onto the ground.

And then the Emperor laughed.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Beijing, January 1668

Snow may have wrapped the city in a wintry blanked, but inside the Forbidden Palace the Emperor was more active than ever.

The Kangxi Emperor sat on a throne wrapped in furs, while his officials tried to explain to him the main problems facing the dynasty.

“So I understand this,” he said with his brows arched, “you’re telling me we cannot feed Beijing.”

The official looked at the figures. “That’s correct, Your Illustrious Majesty. Traditionally, the city received grain from the south via the Grand Canal. Now...” the official shrugged.

Another official spoke up. “To be fair, the Ming loyalists provide us with grain in tribute as part of our peace terms. But should they ever cease to supply us with grain, we would have a problem.”

Kangxi scowled. “So our armies keep them pliant, and their grain keeps us from going to war again.”

“We need to find,” he mused, “a way around this.” He thought for a moment of the Red Haired barbarians. “Tobacco came from the Spanish lands. Perhaps other crops grow there too that would thrive here?”

One of the officials stroked his beard. “Who knows? But it would be easy to find out. But our other proposal, Your Illustrious Majesty, would be to improve the canal system along the Yellow River.”

“And how will we pay for that?” demanded an older official. He slammed a cane on the ground and quoted Confucius. “Those who do not economize will agonize.”

“Anyway, don’t you remember what happened to the Ming? The state was broke by the end because it spent more than it collected.”

Kangxi spoke up. “But the problem now isn’t that the state is broke. It’s that the people lack a medium of exchange, which cripples everything we try to do. With no silver, people cannot pay taxes, buy cloth or grain, or earn a living in the cities. And if they cannot pay taxes, then we cannot build canals.” [4]

One official, wrapped in a fur from Siberia and silk woven in Jiangxi, asked, “If you ask me, this is for the best.” He took out a piece of paper, and read a series of points. “First, peasants should be producing their own cloth and grain, not buying it. Second, if we ban the use of silver, then trade will stagnate and people will travel less, keeping them close to their ancestral shrines. Third, without precious metals to buy frivolous luxuries, the gap between rich and poor will be lessened. Fourth, it’s easier to steal copper taels than silver cash, so crime will decrease.”

The official beamed. “So you see, abandoning silver entirely and using copper
only when necessary would work best.”

Kangxi though about what his father would do in this situation. Then he realized his father would have fallen to the ground frothing at the mouth and then said Jesus told him that China should not be sold for a sack of 30 taels of silver." Shaking his head, he said, “Any other ideas?”

The insulted official slunk to the back of the chamber while another official stepped forward. “We could try importing more silver, but since most of our trade comes through the Ming territories anyway, this would only increase our dependence on them.” The official hesitated, and then said, “Well, people use money because it’s a convenient medium of exchange. Silver is only a shiny metal that everyone agreed is worth something, right?”

There was a feeling of unease in the room, and then the official said, “well, suppose we come up with another medium of exchange.” He hesitated. “We could try, for instance, paper money.”

The Kangxi Emperor thought. “Would it work?”

“Well, the reason that people use silver is that they trust it; it does not have any intrinsic value to cold and hungry people.”

“So how do you get people to trust pieces of paper?”

There was an awkward silence, and the official hesitated before answering. “We must make sure that it’s accepted for tax revenues. That gives it a clear value that people will use it for, and it will be far easier to carry a thousand taels of paper than a thousand taels of silver.”

The Emperor sighed and rubbed his eyebrows. “Do it.” [5]

[5] These ideas were all debated during OTL Qing, save for paper money (the original proposal involved using stamped copper coins with artificially imposed higher values).
 
I'm glad that this TL is no longer moribund. The only question that I have is Oboi - maybe you could throw in a cast of characters as a refresher for new readers?
 

Faeelin

Banned
I'm glad that this TL is no longer moribund. The only question that I have is Oboi - maybe you could throw in a cast of characters as a refresher for new readers?

Sure.

Oboi-Manchu regent after the death of the last Qing Emperor.

Kangxi- The new Qing Emperor.
 
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