Peasants, enrich yourselves! A right opposition USSR TL.

So you shift some of the production to consumer goods it isn't the end of the world. It wasn't like the process wasn't massively inefficient OTL.

I really guess that the political economic point that some economic decisions produce externalities isn’t sinking in, despite it being a motivating factor in your original comment regarding peasants (and grain producing proles).

Historically the only reason for the low number of suppression of urban uprisings were the implicit labour motivator of the suppression of rural uprisings. There is no “just shift” without state or revolutionary violence.
 
I really guess that the political economic point that some economic decisions produce externalities isn’t sinking in, despite it being a motivating factor in your original comment regarding peasants (and grain producing proles).

Historically the only reason for the low number of suppression of urban uprisings were the implicit labour motivator of the suppression of rural uprisings. There is no “just shift” without state or revolutionary violence.

The workers wouldn't exactly be upset about getting more consumer goods themselves. Might slow down industrialization a bit but it was over rushed anyways.A lot of what was produced under Stalin was complete crap anyway.
 
Interesting timeline! I am watching this intently.
Therefore, please don't take the following criticism too harshly:
First of all, the the Soviets were able to obtain a significant long term loan from Germany in exchange for promises of future deliveries of grain, oil and other natural resources.
There is more than one reason why this came to nothing IOTL. The German government and its central bank had literally ZERO freely available reserves they could have lent to anyone. And even if they had a little more, through some kind of handwavium, there would still be the problem that any German government's first and foremost aim in international financial policies was to show the ToV parties that Germany was unable to pay the reparations, so that they would be reduced, postponed, or even ultimately scrapped. If Germany had really lent a significant amount of money to the Soviet Union (of all countries!), that would have been a clear sign to the ToV powers that Germany had deeper pockets than it claimed to have, which means the reparations would be extracted without mercy.

I don't know about the plausibility of French or British loans, but German loans are certainly a non-starter.
 
The Great Depression and Soviet Industrialization

RousseauX

Donor
JM8FKao.jpg


The Great Depression was the worst economic downturn the capitalist world have ever experienced in the age of mass politics. It was this, more than almost any other factor, which gave the USSR the ability to recover from the crisis of the mid-late 1920s and march towards becoming an industrialized power.

The Soviet Union was relatively insulated from the depression's negative effects for several reasons. Unlike much of the capitalist world the USSR was not on the gold standard, which meant it did not experience the deflationary cycles which wrecked western economies. [1] Second, despite hit to its export revenues due to lower commodity prices: the Soviets were still far less interconnected with global trade and financial networks than most other countries. The planned nature of Soviet industry also meant it was more immune to market forces and the downturn did not result in unemployment: depressed global conditions hardly caused lower quotas issued by industrial managers.

The depression also provided significant opportunities to the USSR: first in terms of a trickle of immigrants from the United States and other western countries. [2] A significant minority of them were highly educated leftists who lacked job opportunities in their native countries where 25% unemployment was common. They saw Soviet socialism as the future and an alternative to the "crash of the old world" in capitalist countries. Those ideologically convicted intellectuals would prove valuable in lending their skills at mathematics, engineering and technology to the Soviet economy in the 1930s and beyond.

Most importantly, the prices of capital goods fell through the floor during the depression. Nobody was looking to open new factories in America or England, so western machine tools manufacturers were desperate for customers. All of a sudden it was a buyer's market for the most advanced industrial technologies at literal fire sale pries, with the Soviets being one of the few purchasers. The crown Jewels of American industrial capitalism became an open catalog for their arch-nemesis to purchase. [3]

By 1930, Freyn Engineering was helping setting up brand new steel plants as big as the flagship US steel plant in Gary, Indiana in the Ural mountains [4]. Caterpillar build factories producing tractors in Kharkov and Leningrad. Ford was building auto-plants modeled on the Baton Rouge in southern Russia. Electric plants, ball bearings plants, textile factories, furniture factories flowed in from Sweden, the UK, France and Germany. Factories for everything from the highest valued capital goods to the lowest valued consumer goods was being built all across the USSR. [5] The Soviets would also use quite a few "tricks", such as purchasing the license to build one factory plant, and then simply built a dozen using the blueprints they acquired to cut down on costs. All over the Soviet Union, industrial productivity was finally up, and Russia for the first time had something akin for a modern industrial economy on par with that of its western rivals. Finally consumer goods were being manufactured at a rate which met at least some of the demands of the Soviet people. [6]

Hidden from view however, this industrialization was paid for with horrific human costs....

- A History of Global Industrialization, David Landes, Harvard University Press




[1] The great depression was a financial crisis turned deflationary spiral, with central banks unable to act because of adherence to convertibility to gold. Countries like China which was on the silver standard suffered less otl, and recovery in the US began when FDR went off the gold standard.

[2] As per otl, except they (mostly) don't end up being purged

[3] Exactly as per otl, an understated reason for the "success" of Stalinist industrialization was that western technologies became available exactly when it was "do or die" for the Soviet industries.

[4] Magnitogorsk will be built as otl thanks to the lobbying of newly minted heavy industry commissar Sergo Ordzhonikidze

[5] Soviet industries is more focused on light industry and consumer goods as opposed to heavy industries like steel than OTL. Without collectivization, and with more pragmatic and risk averse leadership, increasing consumer goods production to pay for grain overcomes ideological disposition towards heavy industry. Overall Soviet industrialization is also slower than OTL for reasons we will explore

[6] Note, collectivization never took place ttl, this is going to have incalculable consequences in the future. Overall living standards in the USSR are also much, much higher than otl 1930s. It's hard to overstate what a disaster collectivization was. In some areas such as Kazakh SSR the number of livestock fell by 90%. Without collectivization the peasantry are immensely better off.
 
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So will this more gradual industrialization lend itself to a healthier resource base than otl. Also how will science and technology develop compared to otl?
 
[2] As per otl, except they (mostly) don't end up being purged

There isn't the same kind of working class public demanding that someone pay for the failures of industrialisation. Many of the leading lights have been dimmed or put out. This means that the Specialist / Engineers purges are a "voluntary" purge, not a mass demanded purge. However, you might want to read Fitzpatrick on commissar structures and the Great purges. She indicates that the microeconomics of party advancement pretty much demanded a Great purge. Djilas' analysis mirrors.

[5] Soviet industries is more focused on light industry and consumer goods as opposed to heavy industries like steel than OTL. Without collectivization, and with more pragmatic and risk averse leadership, increasing consumer goods production to pay for grain overcomes ideological disposition towards heavy industry. Overall Soviet industrialization is also slower than OTL for reasons we will explore

You'll want to use Strauss (1941) Soviet Russia: Anatomy of a Social History https://www.marxists.org/archive/strauss/index.htm on underproductivity in consumer goods in the Soviet Union in the 1930s. The critical pathways in fruit and canning, fibre and weaving meant that these industries sagged in productivity. They were also more open to production inhibiting industrial action by the proletariat. More so than heavy industry where the "new" proletariat that appeared miraculously from the grain producing areas were starved and beaten and then offered rapid promotion pathways forwards. In Magnitogorsk after five weeks you would be a skilled worker and have changed plants five times. In a fruit canning district using older capital goods…

[6] Note, collectivization never took place ttl, this is going to have incalculable consequences in the future. Overall living standards in the USSR are also much, much higher than otl 1930s.

Collectivisation took place here: voluntarily. In old sovkhoz and revolutionary communes. It'll still be taking place for ideological reasons where the rural proletariat agrees to whip itself, rather than having the market whip it. Enclosure will be taking place (forcibly) in fruit and fibre too. Much more than historically. Sovkhoz acreage will increase. Remember that by the time the Ural method came about, NEPmen farmers were already extinct. Urban workers were attacking medium and large peasants for the audacity of being able to feed themselves and hire half a dozen labourers. But largely to get grain surpluses. And this "height" of living standard has not yet been dealt with. Urban workers were motivated to revolutionary violence through this period due to failure to supply adequate grain. We aren't talking luxury items like vodka, clothing, fruit, meat.

And that height of living standard is concentrated in the least mechanised sector of labour productivity. The party's implicit methods of promotion demand a grand purge of the party ( a whole lot of young red "experts" want promotions ). The working class has a critical pathway level revolutionary political demand that has not been crushed or resolved. It looks to me as though Milovan Djilas' theorisation of the New Class' need for social dominance is acquiescence to the peasantry as a disorganised social force, an unstated resolution of the Urban problem (I've indicated my belief as to the probable methods of resolution until 1936-7 when consumer goods production might be adequate under a different investment allocation), that the intelligentsia and specialists and engineers have been allowed complete (more or less) political freedom (! !!!), that a larger than historical survival of NEPmen in the non-commanding heights continues (feeding red workers upset), and that the party has not eaten its own liver in public yet.

And, of course, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make up this gap in ten years. Either we do it or they will crush us."

And there's *still* going to be a climactic failure in the bread bins of the Soviet Union, the NEP distribution methods are inefficient in crises (but less so than the post-forced collectivisation ones), party documents indicate a willingness to ameliorate famine and orders to do so (criminal incapacity is culpability for state agents in my mind). That's comin'. I see a lot more dead in Kiev, and a lot fewer dead in villages. YAMV.

So I suspect that there have been periodic uprisings, concentrated in "old" heavy industries, or very old consumer "mass" plants. Led by "all-party" underground leftist workers who existed in the camps historically in the 1930s, "Stalinists," and local trade unionists. Most aged at least 16 in 1917, if not older. These workers uprisings have been put down effectively by central apparatus combined with political police and armed forces transported in by train. Consider the management of Petrograd's workers during Kronstadt, or the 1956 strikes put down in the Soviet Union, or 1962's Novocherkassk massacre. They don't reach the West. For a while. Some time. Andrle'll have them in his book allohistorically though, Fitzpatrick maybe. Except instead of hundreds we number in the thousands. Just get some new peasants from an NEPman enclosure or the new Orchard bought by sovkhoz. And this will keep going *and exacerbate* until the scissors close. Historical industrialisation relied on an escalator out of the hell of the kholkoz. Here hell begins at the factory gates.

yours,
Sam R.
 
I am surprised so many people seem to think that the staggeringly stupid decisions made OTL was the only ones possible. That actually doing something else somehow makes things even worse than OTL. Considering how badly things went that is barely possible.
 
I am surprised that people who have read so little about the knife balanced soviet economy of right left flip flops think that there's any morality to the liquidation of one soviet class over another, rather than the "economic necessity" of vast dispropriations via a ruling class enclosing an entire economy for its own personal benefit. Repeatedly noting for the simple that there was no way out of the 1920s without political violence against at least one productive class isn't a moral judgement, it is a political reality of the lack of capacity for positive motivation during primary accumulation. Let me refer you to Hammond and Hammond if you're so slight of fucking reading that you think the world's first industrialisation was morally acceptable. And Hammond and Hammond are so limited in scope that there is no fourth volume "The Indian Labourer."

yours,
Sam R.
 

RousseauX

Donor
You could argue violence was necessary in any industrialization process but degree of violence mattered though, and the degree of violence under otl Stalinism was certainly not necessary and was counter-productive.

For instance, when it came to offering avenue of advancement for young "New Soviet Men" coming out of technical schools the rate of advancement provided by the purges was way too fast in the 1930s.

There were many instances when fresh graduates became factory director almost instantly upon graduation, and then just a couple years later got moved on to something like commissar of industry sectors for entire oblasts if not republics because the entire economic management class got shot by the NKVD. Those are positions which required decades of experience and the purges resulted in people woefully under-qualified serving in them. To give a specific example, A certain M.S Lazarev went from being a shop manager at a Gorky Automobile Factory in 1937 to becoming head of Tractors and Motor industry of the entire Soviet Union within months despite telling the central committee that he was "unprepared" for even lower level jobs.

Industrialization was going to provide a lot of opportunities in any case and I doubt Ivan coming out of engineering school was going to revolt unless he's made the equivalent of an upper manager at GM within 3 years. It is extremely dubious, therefore, that purging of the party economic apparatus to the degree Otl was anywhere near what was "required". The purging of so many experienced economic managers right as the economy was expanding was a net negative to industrialization otl.
 
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I am surprised that people who have read so little about the knife balanced soviet economy of right left flip flops think that there's any morality to the liquidation of one soviet class over another, rather than the "economic necessity" of vast dispropriations via a ruling class enclosing an entire economy for its own personal benefit. Repeatedly noting for the simple that there was no way out of the 1920s without political violence against at least one productive class isn't a moral judgement, it is a political reality of the lack of capacity for positive motivation during primary accumulation. Let me refer you to Hammond and Hammond if you're so slight of fucking reading that you think the world's first industrialisation was morally acceptable. And Hammond and Hammond are so limited in scope that there is no fourth volume "The Indian Labourer."

yours,
Sam R.

There is a difference between sending thugs to break up strikes and killing the strike breakers. There is a difference from kicking long term tenants off the land that has been farmed by their family for generations to raise sheep and rounding them up and putting them in concentration camps. There is a difference between using slavery openly when it was the rule worldwide for millennia not the exception and using it when it has been considered a moral evil for decades and calling it something else. One is bad, the other is worse.

At its worst, neither the British Empire nor the United States rounded up hundreds of thousands to millions of its own citizens to be enslaved or to be killed. THAT is a distinct difference.
 
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This still on?

After two years of exploratory visits and friendly negotiations, Ford Motor Company signed a landmark agreement to produce cars and trucks in the Soviet Union on May 31, 1929.

The Soviet Union, which in 1928 had only 20,000 cars and a single truck factory, was eager to join the ranks of automotive production, and Ford, with its focus on engineering and manufacturing methods, was a natural choice to help.

Signed in Dearborn, Michigan, the contract stipulated that Ford would oversee construction of a production plant at Nizhny Novgorod, located on the banks of the Volga River, to manufacture Model A cars. An assembly plant would also start operating immediately within Moscow city limits. In return, the USSR agreed to buy 72,000 unassembled Ford cars and trucks and all spare parts to be required over the following nine years, a total of some $30 million worth of Ford products. Valery Meshlauk, vice chairman of the Supreme Council of National Economy, signed the Dearborn agreement on behalf of the Soviets. To comply with its side of the deal, Ford sent engineers and executives to the Soviet Union.

At the time the U.S. government did not formally recognize the USSR
 
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Oh, and still the imports of Tractors from Ford, International Harvester, John Deere, and Allis-Chalmers, and to license build some of them in the USSR in Albert Kahn designed factories in the late '20s? OTL his firm working with the USSR in raising over 500 factory complexes
 
Very interesting so far. Some of the worst excesses of Soviet Industralization may be avoided ITTL, since it seems that entire process is approached with some degree of rationality and there is less of a "at all costs" mentality that characterized Industrialization IOTL.

However, it will be very interesting to see what impact these changes will have on development of the Red Army, both in regards to doctrine, as well as equipment wise.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Very interesting so far. Some of the worst excesses of Soviet Industralization may be avoided ITTL, since it seems that entire process is approached with some degree of rationality and there is less of a "at all costs" mentality that characterized Industrialization IOTL.

However, it will be very interesting to see what impact these changes will have on development of the Red Army, both in regards to doctrine, as well as equipment wise.
You will see once we start getting into the mid-late 30s
 
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