Peacefull Decolonisation of Indonesia

Status
Not open for further replies.
What if Indonesia achived independance peacefully? In OTL the Dutch objected when Indonesia declared independance, starting a armed struggle. What if the Dutch accepted Indonesian independance? What if the Indonesian nationalists did not declare independance, would they then be given independance on a later date? How would this alternate path in history affect he cultures of Indonesia and the Netherlands? Would the Indonesian borders be the same as in our time line?

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Desmond Tutu of South Africa said, how a country wins independence has a large effect on how it then governs itself.

So, if Indonesia wins its independence peacefully soon after WWII, maybe there isn’t this large scale massacre of 500,000 ethnic Chinese citizens following a coup attempt in 1965. Yes, that’s half a million. The movie The Year of Living Dangerously covers this general time period.

As an American citizen I should say that my government worked against human rights by turning over lists of communist party members many of whom were killed. It was a sorry chapter in the cold war. We tended to see the conflict purely in terms of West and East, when of course there was a large component of ethnic hatred as well.


*I’m both an idealist and an optimist
 
For high trajectory, maybe a more successful Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) including Indonesian leadership. I think this is often given the beginning of the 1955 conference in Bandung, Indonesia, or perhaps that was a big early step forward.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nR63CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq="It+prides+itself+as+being+one+of+the+founders+of+NAM"&source=bl&ots=AvmCWbnsVX&sig=pA5YezdAU29YO27kiew63iRJvSU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9kbKdyNbZAhVDdt8KHaRfCWsQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q="It prides itself as being one of the founders of NAM"&f=false

And maybe realistically, a reduction in East-West tensions following the death of Stalin sure would help!
Im not sure how Stalins death is relevant for the decolonisation of Indonesia as he died after Indonesia achived its independance.
 

GeographyDude

Gone Fishin'
Yes, I'm aware Indonesia fought Holland from 1945 to '49, and that Stalin died in 1953.

What I have in mind is that if the cold war had then relaxed, we on the U.S. may not have propped up seemingly every dictatorship perceived to be friendly to our interests, nor would the Soviets seemingly followed a policy of rushing in and arming rebel groups. Nor we would on the U.S. view any reduction in super favorably terms to corporate interests to be intolerable 'communism' or 'socialism.' In fact, in a cold war light as it were, just maybe West and East would compete on who could do a better job at genuine economic development in third world countries and winning allies this way.

And a relaxation would create more space for Indonesia as one of the major leaders of the Non-Aligned Movement.
 
Yes, I'm aware Indonesia fought Holland from 1945 to '49, and that Stalin died in 1953.

What I have in mind is that if the cold war had then relaxed, we on the U.S. may not have propped up seemingly every dictatorship perceived to be friendly to our interests, nor would the Soviets seemingly followed a policy of rushing in and arming rebel groups. Nor we would on the U.S. view any reduction in super favorably terms to corporate interests to be intolerable 'communism' or 'socialism.' In fact, in a cold war light as it were, just maybe West and East would compete on who could do a better job at genuine economic development in third world countries and winning allies this way.

And a relaxation would create more space for Indonesia as one of the major leaders of the Non-Aligned Movement.
Sounds reasonable but what i wanted to know is if it were possible for Indonesia to achive independance without anyform of hot war between indonesian nationalist and the dutch empire. How would that alternate path impacted the culture of indonesia? Also what would happen to all those indonesians with colonial ties that emigrated to the netherlands, australia and the united states.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I think its possible if the US gets a wild bee in its bonnet against Dutch reentry that the Dutch return to reconquer. But violent experiences during WWII and the weeks after will still be fundamental.

Indonesia may have a pro-US orientation and not take on an identity of non-alignment, by which it meant, not allied with America or European NATO countries.

Peaceful decolonization by the Dutch that also avoids WWII would probably be a really long process lasting into the 1970s or 1980s.

And a warlike process could last as long.
 
What if Indonesia achived independance peacefully? In OTL the Dutch objected when Indonesia declared independance, starting a armed struggle. What if the Dutch accepted Indonesian independance? What if the Indonesian nationalists did not declare independance, would they then be given independance on a later date? How would this alternate path in history affect he cultures of Indonesia and the Netherlands? Would the Indonesian borders be the same as in our time line?

Links:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution

It may be possible if the Japanese did not "dangle" the prospect of independence in front of Soekarno and Hatta, the Dutch resume colonization after World War II, and some years down the track realize they don't have the economic capacity to support a colony.
 

kholieken

Banned
Europe has to be in much, much worse shape. Everybody resists decolonization, it took decades of violent struggle for Europeans to withdraws from its colony.
 
What if Indonesia achived independance peacefully? In OTL the Dutch objected when Indonesia declared independance, starting a armed struggle. What if the Dutch accepted Indonesian independance?
What if Australia made them accept it?

Im thinking that the easiest POD is maybe a stronger independent Australian policy, as the local power they could probably make something happen in late 40 with Europe recovering after WWII? Was Dutch rule (and French/Portuguese) not in large part re-established immediately with GB/Indian/Aus/etc troops, could they say no if Australia decided to split off the local islands as independent states?
 
What I have in mind is that if the cold war had then relaxed, we on the U.S. may not have propped up seemingly every dictatorship perceived to be friendly to our interests, nor would the Soviets seemingly followed a policy of rushing in and arming rebel groups. Nor we would on the U.S. view any reduction in super favorably terms to corporate interests to be intolerable 'communism' or 'socialism.' In fact, in a cold war light as it were, just maybe West and East would compete on who could do a better job at genuine economic development in third world countries and winning allies this way.
I suppose I’ll be the one to say it

It doesn’t particularly matter who the President is, or who the General Secretary is. The Cold War was not really a matter of how nice the United States or the USSR were and it wasn’t a tragic misunderstanding of world views. The socialization of economies whether by elections or by revolution was perceived, correctly, by the ruling class of the United States as an existential threat. There is a reason why the elected Allende government in ‘73 was treated much the same way as the Cuban government in ‘59. Or how Guatemala and Iran were treated in ‘53 and‘54 versus American interventions in Bolshevik Russia in 1918 or in Nicaragua in ‘79 - ‘80. Across time and space, across different American presidents and events, we see the exact same tendency. The tendency for European and North American capitalist powers to intervene and destroy real or perceived attempts at socializing/nationalizing the economies of nations - peripheral or otherwise.

If a peace-loving freak hippie replaced Stalin as General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I don’t think it was do much at all to change the temperament of American leaders towards securing obedient clients and neo-colonial relationships with newly independent colonies and towards the extermination of the Communist Party of Indonesia.

It wasn’t the harshness of Soviet policy that conditioned the American elite to see economic shifts to the left as intolerable communism or socialism, it was the dollar amounts and the loss of cheap labor or lucrative resource extraction. Even if you remove the fact of an actually-existing-socialism and big red boogeyman that haunted (haunts?) the nightmares of American policymakers, we have still consistently seen anti-democratic and violent actions taken against colonial subjects seeking economic self-determination. The loss of profits being siphoned via indigenous compradors outweighs any number of bleeding heart liberal tendencies. The history of American occupations in Latin American prior to the advent of Bolshevism is instructive. It wasn’t for kicks that the Union Minière du Haut-Katanga and the Belgian ruling class practically threw money at Tshombe to secede and destabilize Lumumba’s Congo. It was to secure the copper industry and destroy any attempt to sever the Congo from Belgium’s 'gentle paternal hand.’ And boom, we get thirty two years of Mobutu. I would give more examples but I don’t want to veer into current politics.

The chance of a peaceable Cold War in which both sides compete on a fair and free playing field to win over the hearts and minds of the global population is nil.
 
Last edited:
Desmond Tutu of South Africa said, how a country wins independence has a large effect on how it then governs itself.

So, if Indonesia wins its independence peacefully soon after WWII, maybe there isn’t this large scale massacre of 500,000 ethnic Chinese citizens following a coup attempt in 1965. Yes, that’s half a million. The movie The Year of Living Dangerously covers this general time period.

As an American citizen I should say that my government worked against human rights by turning over lists of communist party members many of whom were killed. It was a sorry chapter in the cold war. We tended to see the conflict purely in terms of West and East, when of course there was a large component of ethnic hatred as well.
*laughs in Philippines* :p

Indonesia would have been the same without rebelling against the Netherlands.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
What if Australia made them accept it?

Im thinking that the easiest POD is maybe a stronger independent Australian policy, as the local power they could probably make something happen in late 40 with Europe recovering after WWII? Was Dutch rule (and French/Portuguese) not in large part re-established immediately with GB/Indian/Aus/etc troops, could they say no if Australia decided to split off the local islands as independent states?

Getting my comment in before the necro gets noticed:

T'would truly be enlightened if Australia applied its own local anti-colonial Monroe Doctrine, and the US backed it up, opposing Dutch return. Earning a decent relationship with their new neighbor, as long as they don't get overbearing themselves.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Only a couple counter-points - the US hasn't been going the Contra route against the 21st century electoral revival of Ortega and the Sandinistas, nor the Bolivarian elected governments in South America, nor using Contra or coup against the elected FMLN leaders in El Salvador. So a softening of the militarist and cloak and dagger tactics against leftists since the Eisenhower through Reagan Cold War years, despite keeping international economic institutions in a neoliberal economic straitjacket.

Islamists and dictators in the Middle East or an anti-Israel agenda have taken priority as US targets since circa 1990 over political enemies in the hemisphere.

In your view has Vietnam been spared US harassment since the 1990s because it's surrendered economically to capitalism?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Return to the Grave from whence you came!



With Iron, Salt, Blood, and Power I fix you back into the ground where you may once again rest!
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top