Peace with Britain in 1940: An alternate world war 2

Care to guess how long that force had trained for the mission? And how lucky they were?
I've just refreshed my memory. Training started in November 1939 and they were ready by the end of March. Four to five months.

That's not to say a small elite force couldn't be dropped into Britain at shorter notice. But only for a quick action against one target, Ora snatch and grab raid, and at say up to ten miles from the coast for U-Boat or E boat exfiltration. I can't think of a vital target that wouldn't have too strong a guard for the raiders to get away cleanly. The Eagle has landed scenario would be nice but who would be so vital that their kidnap would lead to Halifax signing a peace deal he otherwise wouldn't or couldn't get support for?

The Royal Family? Unless Canaris finds one of them visiting "Studley Constable" it's going to be ASB levels of impossible. Buckingham Palace isn't really accessible for an air drop and the survival chances of Ju-52s over London are low. Any small U-Boat that fancies its chances going up the Thames to Whitehall undetected? (it could of course improve British war efforts by destroying the Air Ministry by accident.)

Catch one or more Royals at Windsor Castle? Back to a large force needed to secure it. I don't see the raiders getting away to the coast but they would have one or more valuable hostages. 'Sign the peace deal or the Princess gets it' might work. But I think you could guarantee a back stab from Britain once Barbarossa is launched.

Sorry to seem so negative about your plans. They have some merit and are close to one of my own pet PODs. But such scenarios do need to be seen to take account of the obstacles even the best armed forces would face and the limitations of the force launching the ops.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I've just refreshed my memory. Training started in November 1939 and they were ready by the end of March. Four to five months.
Of which most was commited to "bunker busting" training, i.e. on the Czechs fortifications IIRC.

Possible targets in this case wouldn't need so much of this. They could also draw on the "experience" gathered so far. Would/could IMO cut preparation time for the "teams" in this case considerably ... though still quite tight timeframe, I have to admitt.

However, without a list/selection of targets further consideration won't lead to anything, I assume.

ITTL "only" some stunt(s) are needed to make Halifax more malleable about the northern waters (Iceland, Norway, Färöer, Greenland ... or at least part(s) of it). These stunts might give enough "concern" of what the germans might be able to come up with, OTOH in rebuffing (some of) them also the welcomed sign of "we will and CAN fight even on the beaches and make it hard- whatever your plan.
 

hipper

Banned
Of which most was commited to "bunker busting" training, i.e. on the Czechs fortifications IIRC.

Possible targets in this case wouldn't need so much of this. They could also draw on the "experience" gathered so far. Would/could IMO cut preparation time for the "teams" in this case considerably ... though still quite tight timeframe, I have to admitt.

However, without a list/selection of targets further consideration won't lead to anything, I assume.

ITTL "only" some stunt(s) are needed to make Halifax more malleable about the northern waters (Iceland, Norway, Färöer, Greenland ... or at least part(s) of it). These stunts might give enough "concern" of what the germans might be able to come up with, OTOH in rebuffing (some of) them also the welcomed sign of "we will and CAN fight even on the beaches and make it hard- whatever your plan.


The reason that Halifax was contemplating peace was to secure the Empire, Iceland and the Faroe Islands are fairly critical to the security, sea lines of communication and all that. giving them to the Nazis or their proxies would decrease Security so it's not really a possibility, Remember they don't Trust Hitler to keep His word
 
think Iceland and Faroes are impossible for German operations but Greenland possible if attempted simultaneously to Norway (with pact with USSR allowing use of Northern Sea Route to Pacific, Norway-Greenland could overcome GIUK Gap into Atlantic.)

Greenland. Right.
So we'll just transport EVERYTHING they need, to non-existant bases, across 2,000 of miles of seriously nasty (especially in winter) Atlantic Ocean patrolled by somewhat aggressive Allied subs. What could possibly go wrong.

Good grief, the Allies didn't make much use of Greenland because it was too hard, and they were a lot closer with a vastly more powerful naval and shipping resource.

was not offering scenario for Operation Sea Lion 2.0 invasion, but rather operations on and (floating) around Greenland an order of magnitude greater than those which they did carry out (there and in the equally harsh climes of Svalbard.)

this would be major undertaking but with several benefits. close off cryolite supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolite , would or could force Allies to divert VLR aircraft (bombers) to cover air gap south of Greenland, and honey trap for Allied ships (in addition to ice and fog, German KM could add mines.)
 
Catch one or more Royals at Windsor Castle? Back to a large force needed to secure it. I don't see the raiders getting away to the coast but they would have one or more valuable hostages. 'Sign the peace deal or the Princess gets it' might work. But I think you could guarantee a back stab from Britain once Barbarossa is launched.
Quite apart from the fact that the Royal Family are defended by a significant number of infantry in peacetime, let alone wartime (even today they spend their time not on public duties in places like Iraq and Afghanistan), there's the reason that Prince Harry is referred to as "the Spare, not the Heir". Under no circumstances whatsoever could the government negotiate for the return of a member of the Royal Family held hostage, nor would the Firm countenance it - because it would be the end of them as an institution. Put simply the monarchy can't behave like that and survive - but conversely if one of them was murdered by the Germans in a raid it guarantees their survival for a couple of generations. They're very cold-blooded about this sort of thing, and note that George VI fought at Jutland, Prince Andrew fought in the Falklands and Prince Harry in Afghanistan. None of them were directly in line to the throne at the time, but it is considered essential for members of the Royal Family to take the same risks as those who serve them in action.
 
was not offering scenario for Operation Sea Lion 2.0 invasion, but rather operations on and (floating) around Greenland an order of magnitude greater than those which they did carry out (there and in the equally harsh climes of Svalbard.)

this would be major undertaking but with several benefits. close off cryolite supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolite , would or could force Allies to divert VLR aircraft (bombers) to cover air gap south of Greenland, and honey trap for Allied ships (in addition to ice and fog, German KM could add mines.)

So the KM sails from Germany to lay an immense minefield south of Greenland.(It has to be immense because thats a HUGE area of water we're talking about)

But dont worry, other operations wont be affected by the massive mine-building effort.
And given the prevalence of ice in the area (this is pre-navigation radar, remember), its likely the KM will end up losing more ships that the allies would (since the allies can, oh, sail around the mined area...)
 
Quite apart from the fact that the Royal Family are defended by a significant number of infantry in peacetime, let alone wartime (even today they spend their time not on public duties in places like Iraq and Afghanistan), there's the reason that Prince Harry is referred to as "the Spare, not the Heir". Under no circumstances whatsoever could the government negotiate for the return of a member of the Royal Family held hostage, nor would the Firm countenance it - because it would be the end of them as an institution. Put simply the monarchy can't behave like that and survive - but conversely if one of them was murdered by the Germans in a raid it guarantees their survival for a couple of generations. They're very cold-blooded about this sort of thing, and note that George VI fought at Jutland, Prince Andrew fought in the Falklands and Prince Harry in Afghanistan. None of them were directly in line to the throne at the time, but it is considered essential for members of the Royal Family to take the same risks as those who serve them in action.
I'm inclined to agree. I posed Windsor and the Royals as the only target I could think of that delivers enough of a psychological blow[1] to potentially change the British minds about an unfavourable peace deal.

Individually each Royal is disposable. Even the monarch (The King is dead, Long live the King/Queen). Certainly a spare and even the heir as there's always another in line. The Germans might think differently I suppose.

And it would need Skorzeny's luck to pull it off. I don't think it's absolutely impossible to raid Windsor Castle, just very very difficult. Nighttime landings virtually impossible and daytime one would be tracked and probably intercepted. And the drops would be observed and the castle defense force alerted plus nearby garrisons got ready to move. The assault would need to be quick, in substantial force and well briefed/trained in advance. (No time for the last and the first two are probably mutually exclusive.) Even then whatever Royals are in residence could probably take refuge in isolated and secure parts of the castle. Anyone know if there's a hidden escape route from the cellars to the town, probably the church crypt?

[1] Short of launching an assault that could be taken for a real invasion, even if the forces could be isolated and beaten in time.
 
And it would need Skorzeny's luck to pull it off. I don't think it's absolutely impossible to raid Windsor Castle, just very very difficult. Nighttime landings virtually impossible and daytime one would be tracked and probably intercepted. And the drops would be observed and the castle defense force alerted plus nearby garrisons got ready to move. The assault would need to be quick, in substantial force and well briefed/trained in advance. (No time for the last and the first two are probably mutually exclusive.) Even then whatever Royals are in residence could probably take refuge in isolated and secure parts of the castle. Anyone know if there's a hidden escape route from the cellars to the town, probably the church crypt?
One of the problems is that any such force in 1940 would be limited to small arms and grenades - the artillery that made such fortifications obsolete can't be delivered. That means Windsor Castle is actually a serious fortification designed to defend against more or less exactly the sort of assault they'd have to make. Not impossible, just very difficult indeed.
There's also the issue that reinforcements are very close by - the Household Cavalry are based just outside Windsor Castle, while the Guards will have at least a Battalion at Birdcage Walk. That means any raid has to be very fast, or will rapidly find itself facing overwhelming force.
 
One of the problems is that any such force in 1940 would be limited to small arms and grenades - the artillery that made such fortifications obsolete can't be delivered. That means Windsor Castle is actually a serious fortification designed to defend against more or less exactly the sort of assault they'd have to make. Not impossible, just very difficult indeed.
There's also the issue that reinforcements are very close by - the Household Cavalry are based just outside Windsor Castle, while the Guards will have at least a Battalion at Birdcage Walk. That means any raid has to be very fast, or will rapidly find itself facing overwhelming force.
Yep. So, nice idea but execution nearly impossible. And since exfiltration is ASB levels of improbability it won't work anyway.

I really can't think of any target(s) so critical to the British war effort that the effects of airborne raid(s) on them would force Halifax or any PM to sign a really unfavorable peace. "Operation Windsor" or The equivalent of a 1,000 bomber raid on Hamburg [1] might give cover for one Haliax wanted to make anyway but that would not be teh OP version.

[1] Which the Luftwaffe can't mount anyway.
 
was not offering scenario for Operation Sea Lion 2.0 invasion, but rather operations on and (floating) around Greenland an order of magnitude greater than those which they did carry out (there and in the equally harsh climes of Svalbard.)

this would be major undertaking but with several benefits. close off cryolite supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryolite , would or could force Allies to divert VLR aircraft (bombers) to cover air gap south of Greenland, and honey trap for Allied ships (in addition to ice and fog, German KM could add mines.)

So the KM sails from Germany to lay an immense minefield south of Greenland.(It has to be immense because thats a HUGE area of water we're talking about)

But dont worry, other operations wont be affected by the massive mine-building effort.
And given the prevalence of ice in the area (this is pre-navigation radar, remember), its likely the KM will end up losing more ships that the allies would (since the allies can, oh, sail around the mined area...)

was talking about entrance(s) to individual fjords not laying barrage to cover North Atlantic. the type of operation that the KM should have done to defend themselves at Narvik for example.

not understanding however with the prevalence of ice (and fog) and the possibility of mines it would be easy to extract (any) force from Greenland?
 
I'm sure its all very Hollywood to have a small para force land in the UK, but it fails Rule 1 of military Ops - what's the bloody POINT?
Because you're basically sending a force of your best men to their death or capture, with no military objective.
Yes, and Eben Emael, the strongest fortress in Europe was absolutely safe. ;-)
 

Deleted member 94680

So whilst all of these ultra-ASB downright comically naive militarily super-missions what exactly are the RAF doing? Were they all parked on the beach during Dynamo and captured as part of the disaster at Dunkirk?


The only and I mean only way Britain is seriously going to consider peace/surrender/cohabitation with the Third Reich is if:
  • You have a complete disaster at Dunkirk
  • The RN is devastated in a series of capital ship actions (the Bismarck becomes the greatest battleship the world has ever known)
  • A alt-BoB results in devastation of the RAF including destruction of the majority of frontline airfields
Even then, it would depend on the terms offered by the Axis
 
was talking about entrance(s) to individual fjords not laying barrage to cover North Atlantic. the type of operation that the KM should have done to defend themselves at Narvik for example.

Errr... how do you moor mines in a fjord so deep that ships can't anchor there?

Very, very carefully, and leaving the area at high speed...

carefully :D

"Warburton-Lee was now outnumbered, and there was a strong possibility the Germans had mined the narrows behind them. With the odds against him, Warburton-Lee could be justified in waiting ... But he also had orders to act aggressively, and the Royal Navy had a tradition of victory and acting aggressively in the face of larger numbers.

For 30 minutes, Warburton-Lee agonized over what to do. He finally chose aggressive action, deciding to attack at “dawn high water.” A dawn attack at high tide would get him over the reported minefields (there were none) and gain maximum surprise"

and Second Battle of Narvik

"Now the British showed determination. The Admiralty ordered the Home Fleet’s commander, Admiral Sir Charles Forbes, to “clean up enemy naval forces and batteries in Narvik by using a battleship heavily escorted by destroyers, with synchronized dive-bombing attacks from [the aircraft carrier] Furious.”

The action would be a purely naval continuation of the attack of April 10, only with overwhelming force. It was a risky operation sending a battleship into the restricted waters of Ofotfjord, which could still be full of mines and U-boats"

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/the-battle-of-narvik-crippling-the-kriegsmarine/

maybe there is more information not shared in the above posts?
 
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