Peace with Britain in 1940: An alternate world war 2

NoMommsen

Donor
Yes & probably some barges could be sunk by bombs landing up to 50 metres away or more. Though i think in the context of earlier posts. destroyers would be the 'heavier vessels', heavier than the light craft at Dover etc.

However, that's the 'full on invasion/USM scenario'. in the 'Raid followed by quick evacuation' option we ought to be talking about E-boats. Which are a bit sturdier sea boats, just inadequate to carry all the (surviving) raiders back. Could fight or run away from the destroyers in normal conditions but hampered by decks full of raiders, some wounded or sea-sick. Tricky.

I think the raid idea is interesting but needs to be co-ordinated with what's happening with peace feelers from Halifax. And of course its target thought through. It won't be enough to force the UK to sign an armistice or agree to very unfavourable peace terms, as the OP suggests. But IF the raiders can inflict serious damage AND escape largely intact, then it would add to the pressure on the UK.

It's the exfiltration part that is very problematic. You may have to cut it to the scale of a small Commando raid, 100-200 men. Which then can't fulfil the harm done criteria. So back to square one??
Well back to square one ...

Göring is ... dissapointed not having been allowed to bomb the BEF into the beaches. The Heer has got all the merits. In his dissapointment he meets - maybe - with Raeder and they cook up a plan for "doing something bold" to impress Hitler. Maybe they also find some "understanding" with the Brandenburgers (btw : founded under command of the Abwehr of Canaris).

Göring gives his Paras as well as airlift and ... aircover.
Therfore he presses the LW to accelerat the beginning og the first phases of the IOTL BoB ("nuisnace raids" and "Kanalkampf"(The Channel battles). See wiki for that and linked "subchapter", As an example for its effects IOTL :
The day had been a victory for the Luftwaffe, the attack on Portland inflicting the worst ever loss of life on British military personnel based in Britain.[60][61] Churchill was perturbed and submitted a memo to the Admiralty entitled "Action This Day",

Could you let me know on one sheet of paper what arrangements you are making about the Channel Convoys now that the Germans are all along the Channel coast? The attacks yesterday both from the air and by E-boats, were very serious, and I should like to be assured this morning that the situation is in hand and the Air is contributing effectively.[62]

Horton regarded the episode as a disgrace and the Admiralty complained to the Prime Minister, who demanded that Fighter Command do more to protect Channel shipping.
As it seems the LW managed to keep the RAF quite busy as well as the RN, even sunk some destroyers and other vessels. Managed on 30.06. to "alert (panicking ?)" 20 counties with only 20 bombers flying.)

Raeder has to work out for some sea-lift (E-boats, T-boats, subs, no destroyers, as there aren't any available (many of them at the ground of the Narvik Fjord) as well as some ... more ... Navy distraction around Norway.
As well as - via Canaris and the Abwehr - some Brandenburgers. Maybe they also manage to get "hands" on some "Feld-Sonder Battalion" ("penal battalions") soldiers of the Wehrmacht (these were the "forebearers" of the rather highly motivated and effectiv "Strafdivision 500").
They would/could be used to fill the ranks as well as be counted as the "left behinds" to ease extraction/exfiltration, while the Paras and Brandenburgers as the more ... valuable ones are earmarked for extraction - and therefore reduce requirements of extraction capacity.

Abwehr also has to deliver suitable landing and embarking sites/points.

All these raids are "embedded" in and covered by LW sorties.

Maybe 2 "mayor" targets and 2 "minor"(distraction) targets.
For the "mayor" target a "first" waves of 20 gliders (200 men) each for securing landing area for paras to follow (maybe another 200 men or even more) each
For the "minor" targets "only" 10 gliders (100 men) without para follow-up (?). They are just for distraction, maybe some bomb laying.
(With 109 DFS 230 delivered until 30.06.1940 I would render 60 of them available for this raid).
Planned "needed" extraction capacity : about a third to a half of the men.

For the targets ... tbh, here I'm abit lost, as I'm not familiar enough with the english channel coast of this time, sea conditions, distrubution of Home Guard and/or other securing forces, value of potential targets/harbours/towns etc.




(In general : I admit, that military history of WW 2 en detail isn't my main focus. I just try to help alternating history thread on a board decidacted to alternatehistory.)
 
From what I've read, Halifax disallowed himself as prime minister because he wasn't an elected member of parliament, and (more importantly) he wasn't a member of the House of Commons. He was a Lord, and therefore wasn't allowed to be Prime Minister. How long had it been since an unelected Lord was Prime Minister? is there some way he could be made an MP?

Hitler wanted the British Empire to remain intact but he wanted German hegemony in Europe recognised and the German pre-WW1 colonies returned - as the final destruction of the Versailles and subsequent treaties.

If Britain did surrender, Spain would have been eager to join the war, and get Gibraltar back (plus French Morocco and whatever other French North African colonies it could get, if any).

For a target close to the coast, why not a reverse Bruneval raid- all the radar stations were close to the coast. The radar research establishment was, too (at Bawdsey Manor on the east coast), though it was moved further inland soon after the start of the war - perhaps the Germans could raid that in ignorance of the move, leading to a Shingle Street fiasco.

The anti-invasion patrol craft weren't armed except for a rocket, they didn't even have a radio, so their mission was to send up the rocket if they saw something. RN ships sometimes went past them without being seen. A cabinet minute from early 1940 states that the navy thought that a German invasion in fast boats could not be prevented (though the number of fast boats suggested was many times what the Germans had available).
 
The anti-invasion patrol craft weren't armed except for a rocket

I don't think this is correct. It's possible that vessels off Scotland (for example) were unarmed, but those in the South-East were armed at least with machine-guns and most had six-pounders or twelve-pounders. The Admiralty had put hundreds of guns into store and these were used to arm auxiliary vessels when war came.

In the list of defensive measures compiled at the time we have:

(a) Destroyer patrols in the Channel, to intercept and engage the enemy at sea, and to support the small craft (b) and (c) below;

(b) Listening patrols of asdic trawlers about 4 miles off-shore to detect the approach of the enemy, to report and attack him;

(c) Inshore patrols of drifters and motor-boats to report and attack the enemy.

Clearly these vessels must have had both radios and weapons, as reporting and attacking would be a bit difficult otherwise.
 
Well back to square one ...

Göring is ... dissapointed not having been allowed to bomb the BEF into the beaches. The Heer has got all the merits. In his dissapointment he meets - maybe - with Raeder and they cook up a plan for "doing something bold" to impress Hitler. Maybe they also find some "understanding" with the Brandenburgers (btw : founded under command of the Abwehr of Canaris).

Göring gives his Paras as well as airlift and ... aircover.
Therfore he presses the LW to accelerat the beginning og the first phases of the IOTL BoB ("nuisnace raids" and "Kanalkampf"(The Channel battles). See wiki for that and linked "subchapter", As an example for its effects IOTL :

As it seems the LW managed to keep the RAF quite busy as well as the RN, even sunk some destroyers and other vessels. Managed on 30.06. to "alert (panicking ?)" 20 counties with only 20 bombers flying.)

Raeder has to work out for some sea-lift (E-boats, T-boats, subs, no destroyers, as there aren't any available (many of them at the ground of the Narvik Fjord) as well as some ... more ... Navy distraction around Norway.
As well as - via Canaris and the Abwehr - some Brandenburgers. Maybe they also manage to get "hands" on some "Feld-Sonder Battalion" ("penal battalions") soldiers of the Wehrmacht (these were the "forebearers" of the rather highly motivated and effectiv "Strafdivision 500").
They would/could be used to fill the ranks as well as be counted as the "left behinds" to ease extraction/exfiltration, while the Paras and Brandenburgers as the more ... valuable ones are earmarked for extraction - and therefore reduce requirements of extraction capacity.

Abwehr also has to deliver suitable landing and embarking sites/points.

All these raids are "embedded" in and covered by LW sorties.

Maybe 2 "mayor" targets and 2 "minor"(distraction) targets.
For the "mayor" target a "first" waves of 20 gliders (200 men) each for securing landing area for paras to follow (maybe another 200 men or even more) each
For the "minor" targets "only" 10 gliders (100 men) without para follow-up (?). They are just for distraction, maybe some bomb laying.
(With 109 DFS 230 delivered until 30.06.1940 I would render 60 of them available for this raid).
Planned "needed" extraction capacity : about a third to a half of the men.

For the targets ... tbh, here I'm abit lost, as I'm not familiar enough with the english channel coast of this time, sea conditions, distrubution of Home Guard and/or other securing forces, value of potential targets/harbours/towns etc.




(In general : I admit, that military history of WW 2 en detail isn't my main focus. I just try to help alternating history thread on a board decidacted to alternatehistory.)
I'd agree with Goering wanting to get some glory for the Luftwaffer after its relative failure at Dunkirk. It's the POD I was thinking of for an airborne invasion in late June/early July. The snag is that due to losses in Holland the available forces are small; a couple of battalions perhaps. I like the idea of bringing in Brandenburgers, anyone know if they have parachute training? Or even glider ops. Let's assume enough
Ju-52s are available to carry a regiment or even more to whatever target within reach of their airbases is selected. More on target selection later.

Some problems though. Nighttime operations would be very difficult, as the Allies proved later in the war. Did the transport pilots train for nighttime drops or the paras. The paras would be dispersed over a wide area even with little air or flak. The German practice of dropping their main weapons in separate bags would mean a lot of delay while troops find any bags and equip themselves then try to form up in some semblance of unit organization. Glider landings pretty much impossible so no untrained ( in parachute landing) troops or heavy weapons.

Daytime? Well, it is possible that the channel convoy attacks could distract Foghter Command for a while. But at this stage of the BOB it was holding squadrons back in reserve that could be directed against raids heading inland. So I don't think the landings would be unopposed. But even if teh did make it to the target area with no losses they'd have been tracked by radar and the ROC.

More later regarding sea ops.
 
I'm sure its all very Hollywood to have a small para force land in the UK, but it fails Rule 1 of military Ops - what's the bloody POINT?
Because you're basically sending a force of your best men to their death or capture, with no military objective.
 
I'm sure its all very Hollywood to have a small para force land in the UK, but it fails Rule 1 of military Ops - what's the bloody POINT?
Because you're basically sending a force of your best men to their death or capture, with no military objective.

The point is that it will intimidate the British people into surrender by providing pictures of elite paratroops being led away by old men with shotguns.
 
Realistically, he'd have to deliver his notice.

It's a bit odd that this fascination about Halifax endures, long after all the cliches have been documented and revised. My good friend @Fletch wrote an excellent TL where a stronger Halifax actually ends the war more quickly yet it seems that according to some he's still the ultimate answer to any scenario where the UK has to give the Axis anything it wants.

Can you link to this?
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I like the idea of bringing in Brandenburgers, anyone know if they have parachute training?
Yes, alraedy early on, when founded for landings behind enemy lines, though I don't know how many got this training.
Later on more of them got a short time training, when needed.


Did the transport pilots train for nighttime drops or the paras.
Transport pilots : yes. Nightflying training was already part of prewar Lufthansa-training.
Paras : not sure.


Glider landings pretty much impossible ...
Why ?
 
If Britain did surrender, Spain would have been eager to join the war, and get Gibraltar back (plus French Morocco and whatever other French North African colonies it could get, if any).
If Britain did surrender, there's no war for Spain to join.
 
Yes, alraedy early on, when founded for landings behind enemy lines, though I don't know how many got this training.
Later on more of them got a short time training, when needed.


Transport pilots : yes. Nightflying training was already part of prewar Lufthansa-training.
Paras : not sure.


Why ?

Because the British had flooded lowlying coastal areas, and put poles and stuff all over available landing sites.
Very unsporting of them
 
The funny weird thing about Sealion, is that people were genuinely in fear at the time of invasion and saw it as a very real possibility. All of us now, with hindsight KNOW it just wasn't feasible at all. I mean, imagine, D Day took years of prep, a massive build up of new innovative machines and solutions to all sorts of problems from DUKWs to DDs, AVRES, flail tanks, LCTs, LCAs, LSTs etc etc etc, plus Mulberry, PLUTO and so on, plus thaassaaands of trucks, lorries, you name it. And what precisely did the Germans have/do? Oh yes, wing it with some river barges...hmmm, yeah, I can really see that working for you.
 
Iceland and the Färöer :
Not to forget Greenland, also juridical danish territory. That would/could give the RN some bad headaches, as the germans WILL ITTL establish naval bases there, esp on Iceland, becomming probably a mayor war harbour.
That would make any possible future attempt of containing/blockading german ships (of whatever kind) MUCH more difficult.

Any German moves toward Iceland, Greenland or the Caribbean means immediate American response and are obvious continued moves to the British as well.

The US is not ready for war certainly, but I suspect there would be very strong pressure on the British regarding that... If it really came down to it, the US Navy could make any Axis presence in any of those places untenable pretty quickly. The US Fleet could take action if it had to to prevent the German occupation of any of those places which would likely mean war, but we could also see the Germans backing down from that.

While the US Army is not remotely ready for immediate action, the Navy can take action.

think Iceland and Faroes are impossible for German operations but Greenland possible if attempted simultaneously to Norway (with pact with USSR allowing use of Northern Sea Route to Pacific, Norway-Greenland could overcome GIUK Gap into Atlantic.)
 
Because the British had flooded lowlying coastal areas, and put poles and stuff all over available landing sites.
Very unsporting of them
A former flying instructor of mine, now sadly deceased, came over to the UK in the early 1940s as a PoW having learned to glide with the Hitler Youth. Shortly after the war and having been released, he decided not to go back to Germany since his home town was now in the Soviet Zone and instead stayed in the UK. Having been bitten by the gliding bug, he then went on to perform one of the first cross-country soaring flights after the war landing out in a farmer's field. According to Siegfried, the following conversation ensued:

F. Giles, esq. - "Ooo Arr, you be lucky you didn't land here last week, we had obstacles all over the field to stop Germans landing here in gliders"
S. Neumann (who still had a very thick German accent 60 years later) - "It seems zat you haff taken zem away a bit too soon!"

Siegfried always had loads of stories, but all of the ones we could verify were true and I believe this one too.
 
think Iceland and Faroes are impossible for German operations but Greenland possible if attempted simultaneously to Norway (with pact with USSR allowing use of Northern Sea Route to Pacific, Norway-Greenland could overcome GIUK Gap into Atlantic.)

Greenland. Right.
So we'll just transport EVERYTHING they need, to non-existant bases, across 2,000 of miles of seriously nasty (especially in winter) Atlantic Ocean patrolled by somewhat aggressive Allied subs. What could possibly go wrong.

Good grief, the Allies didn't make much use of Greenland because it was too hard, and they were a lot closer with a vastly more powerful naval and shipping resource.
 
Yes, alraedy early on, when founded for landings behind enemy lines, though I don't know how many got this training.
Later on more of them got a short time training, when needed.


Transport pilots : yes. Nightflying training was already part of prewar Lufthansa-training.
Paras : not sure.


Why ?
Nighttime glider landings in unfamiliar terrain that may have hidden obstacles are rather dangerous. Difficult enough in daytime.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
If it hadn't happened, probably say the same would be said for a glider landing inside and on a fortified zone ... like Eben Emael.
 

nbcman

Donor
If it hadn't happened, probably say the same would be said for a glider landing inside and on a fortified zone ... like Eben Emael.
You mean the paratrooper and glider landing of about 500 men that were relieved by a pioneer (engineer) battalion and an Infantry regiment within a day of their landing? Now compare the chances of any relief force making their way to a landing in the UK...
 
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