Peace with Britain in 1940: An alternate world war 2

Hmm, what about some kind of "Brandenburgers" operation (don't have to be the OTL Brandenburgers, maybe another "special" unit from navy and/or Paras and/or combination of all of it) ?

Something like Paras airborne landing on some points at the british coast (not necessarily the "most prominent", maybe somewhere in Kent ? ... Stonehenge ? :winkytongue:), supplied by some glider loads (still not very heavy equipment, I know). There they make a lot of noise, blasting something up and ... leave on some sneaked through subs/ E-Boats (at least some of them, there will and should be some corpses left for ... "prove").

Home Guard will boast to have driven the mighty germans away. The germans will counter with a wee smile, that these were only some small scale reconaissance/test missions. However, don't they prove, that germans can, if they would wish, land anywhere, even in Britain ?

Whatever prop the brits may start, I'm sure there will be an "invasion scare". ... Might help to get Halifax around to swallow at least some or one of the toads identified (Iceland, Färöer, Grennland).

... As it seems to me, this ARE the only "toads" there are in the armistice, as outlined by the OP.

Malta, as the only other one debated here, ... well, in another thread (I unfortunatly can't finf in the shortness of time) it was quite well established, that during the war cabinet crisis, Halifax actually considered to giving Malta to Italy, as a "price" for its "good mediation" services.

About as much chance as a chocolate mouse traversing hell.
You do realise the Royal Navy OWNED the channel at night, don't you?
 
The number of killed Home Guards in relation to killed germans would prove different : that, as the germans will depict it, they withdraw deliberatly, as this were - as said - only reconaissance/test missions.
The public will see/perceive a crushed/slaughtered BEF and shortly after that the same soldiers, that did this roaming (almost) "freely" their coasts.

It's the public you, sry, the pro-war faction in Britain has to convince, that the very impressivly victorius Whermacht does NOT have the ability to actually invade Britain to counter the IMO in any case becoming present invasion scare.
Are you kidding me? The press might not have been under the total control of Goebbels like in Germany, but in wartime it came to much the same thing - a journalist would have a chat with the censor before publishing anything, and for a story like this it would be portrayed in a very one-sided manner with any escapees downplayed or hushed up (and given the naval balance in the channel there would be few if any) and tales of elite German paratroopers captured by the Home Guard played up or even invented - nothing new there for the Tabloid press. The Germans can broadcast whatever they want, but it simply wouldn't be believed by the UK population - the very people you need to convince. Besides, who would you have putting your message across - William Joyce???
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@Astrodragon
And actually where was the RN after Dunkirk IOTL and where would it be ITTL ? ... in June/July 1940 ?

Did they line up their fleet from Lowestoft to Falmouth ? ... what they would need to do to prevent all of the actions maybe planned ?
 
@pdf27
Your personal todays hindsight perception.

The number of killed Home Guards in relation to killed germans would prove different : that, as the germans will depict it, they withdraw deliberatly, as this were - as said - only reconaissance/test missions.
The public will see/perceive a crushed/slaughtered BEF and shortly after that the same soldiers, that did this roaming (almost) "freely" their coasts.

It's the public you, sry, the pro-war faction in Britain has to convince, that the very impressivly victorius Whermacht does NOT have the ability to actually invade Britain to counter the IMO in any case becoming present invasion scare.

I could see such a landing. What I find less plausible is the ability to evacuate the survivors, or to get them any heavy weapons. E-boats and U-Boats won't be able to carry very many troops between them and anything slower than an E-boat won't reach the English side of the channel. It's also doubtful that very many E-boats or U-boats will make it back.

An obvious raid with heavy German casualties (mainly POWs stranded in England) won't lead to the conclusion that invasion is inevitable. To do that you need something that looks like a successful invasion, stage 1. My thoughts would be for German paras to seize a few airfields in Kent, near a port (Folkestone ??). Have an air landing division arrive early the next morning and establish an "airhead" that threatens the port. IOTL the British would have been able to eradicate this threat within a few days, provided no seaborne attack is successful in bringing reinforcements and heavy weapons ashore. Which is almost guaranteed.

ITTL the British would have more problems in dealing with an airborne attack, though there would still be some formations available that hadn't gone to France. Any seaborne assault would still most likely fail anyway but the psychological shock of a longer lasting German invasion could panic a weak UK government into an armistice. Might, not certainly.

Fortunately iOTL the Germans wouldn't have had the airborne forces for more than a raid and that should apply here too. IF the only POD is 'no halt order & no BEF evacuation'.
 
Something like Paras airborne landing on some points at the british coast (not necessarily the "most prominent", maybe somewhere in Kent ?
But Kent is literally the most prominent place in the UK, as soon as France has fallen. I mean, you can literally see Kent from occupied Europe.
... Stonehenge ? :winkytongue:)
:eek:

Stonehenge? I mean, not only is Salisbury Plain teeming with infantry and tanks, it's, well, not particularly near the coast. Oh, and the nearest bit of the coast is rather close to Pompey...
 
@Astrodragon
And actually where was the RN after Dunkirk IOTL and where would it be ITTL ? ... in June/July 1940 ?

Did they line up their fleet from Lowestoft to Falmouth ? ... what they would need to do to prevent all of the actions maybe planned ?
You can probably find out if you do the research yourself. But as a start there was at least a destroyer flotilla at Portsmouth and there'd have been others in the Medway ports and Harwich. Lighter vessels in other harbours, including Dover.

These would be sufficient to prevent any withdrawal of forces from anywhere on the coast between Southampton and Kent, or even Essex. For most locations they'd probably be alerted early enough to stop anything but E-boats getting through. Remember the RAF won't be idle either.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@pdf27
This isn't "Churchill" Britain, this is "Halifax" Britain.

And as I said, it's the pro-war faction, that has to have control of censorship etc. to do as you said, which ITTL isn't anymore on the helm.


Sry about Kent in post #58, meant Devon and/or Cornwall.
 

hipper

Banned
@Astrodragon
And actually where was the RN after Dunkirk IOTL and where would it be ITTL ? ... in June/July 1940 ?

Did they line up their fleet from Lowestoft to Falmouth ? ... what they would need to do to prevent all of the actions maybe planned ?

Well actually yes, there was a large number of small vessels trawler sized with minimum armament plus a radio in the channel every night looking for german shipping, to that you can add radar equipped aircraft and chain home low - which started off as a costal defense radar.

Apart from that there were substansial numbers of destroyers available to intercept anything spotted.
 
@pdf27
This isn't "Churchill" Britain, this is "Halifax" Britain.

And as I said, it's the pro-war faction, that has to have control of censorship etc. to do as you said, which ITTL isn't anymore on the helm.
The identity of the PM is not the be all and end all.

For starters, Halifax was literally Churchill's Foreign Secretary. That's literally one of the three Great Offices on the level below PM.
 
@Astrodragon
And actually where was the RN after Dunkirk IOTL and where would it be ITTL ? ... in June/July 1940 ?

Did they line up their fleet from Lowestoft to Falmouth ? ... what they would need to do to prevent all of the actions maybe planned ?

The RN had hundreds of small craft and other ships patrolling the channel and the accessable coastal areas from Dunkirk on (in fact, most of them had been there for ages).
Which is why any SeaLion game has to handwave away the RN, otherwise the barges would be spotted (and targeted) soon after leaving port.

Could a small force be landed from a U-boat somewhere inaccessible like East Anglia? Probably, but precisely what is the use of that?

Go and look it up.
 
Well actually yes, there was a large number of small vessels trawler sized with minimum armament plus a radio in the channel every night looking for german shipping, to that you can add radar equipped aircraft and chain home low - which started off as a costal defense radar.

Apart from that there were substansial numbers of destroyers available to intercept anything spotted.

No no, you have to remember they were all blind drunk on lead-paint laced pink gins, and wouldn't have spotted the Bismark at 10 feet.
Really. Get with the program :D
 
Stonehenge? I mean, not only is Salisbury Plain teeming with infantry and tanks, it's, well, not particularly near the coast. Oh, and the nearest bit of the coast is rather close to Pompey...

Landing a small force to attack the British Army's main training area is a leap of strategic brilliance. Really it is...
 
@pdf27
This isn't "Churchill" Britain, this is "Halifax" Britain.

And as I said, it's the pro-war faction, that has to have control of censorship etc. to do as you said, which ITTL isn't anymore on the helm.


Sry about Kent in post #58, meant Devon and/or Cornwall.
Thanks for corrections. Devon & Cornwall - I think the Western Approaches forces at Plymouth/Devonport might need to be taken into account when considering how easy it would be to sneak small craft into whatever bays are considered suitable for evacuation. I'd also consult local sea charts and tide tables, those waters are treacherous. Ever hear the phrase "wreckers' coast"?

The greater distance from France (Cherbourg and Brittany ports) for both sea and air routes than the coast east of Portsmouth could be a factor in the viability of the operation too.

The choice seems to be try for a raid near something important - Plymouth & Devonport - which would be guard and make evacuation very difficult, if not impossible. Or somewhere isolated that has little or no impact on British resolve. Tricky.
 
So we land at the bottom of a cliff, climb up, then go through a city (without anyone noticing) and attack a base containing tens of thousands of armed, annoyed (because you just woke them up) matelots.
Yep, what could possibly go wrong...:p
 

nbcman

Donor
@Astrodragon
And actually where was the RN after Dunkirk IOTL and where would it be ITTL ? ... in June/July 1940 ?

Did they line up their fleet from Lowestoft to Falmouth ? ... what they would need to do to prevent all of the actions maybe planned ?
Why would the RN need to risk anything other than very light craft in the Channel? All the RN (and Coastal Command / RAF) needs to do is to detect if an invasion is beginning and then sail heavier vessels since those river barges aren't going to get across the Channel quickly.
 
Why would the RN need to risk anything other than very light craft in the Channel? All the RN (and Coastal Command / RAF) needs to do is to detect if an invasion is beginning and then sail heavier vessels since those river barges aren't going to get across the Channel quickly.
Heavier vessels?

Given the sea-going capabilities of those barges, I'd be tempted to order the destroyer flotillas at Harwich and Pompey to sail towards the convoy of barges, then accelerate to full speed and tear straight through the middle, all guns blazing.

Anything they don't hit will be sunk by the wash.
 
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nbcman

Donor
Heavier vessels?

Given the sea-going capabilities of those barges, I'd be tempted to order the destroyer flotillas at Harwich and Pompey to sail towards the convoy of carved, then accelerate to full speed and year straight through the middle, ask guns blazing.

Anything they don't hit will be sunk by the wash.
Heavier meaning destroyers or heavier and lighter being minesweepers, motor torpedo/gunboats and the like.
 
Heavier vessels?

Given the sea-going capabilities of those barges, I'd be tempted to order the destroyer flotillas at Harwich and Pompey to sail towards the convoy of carved, then accelerate to full speed and year straight through the middle, ask guns blazing.

Anything they don't hit will be sunk by the wash.
Yes & probably some barges could be sunk by bombs landing up to 50 metres away or more. Though i think in the context of earlier posts. destroyers would be the 'heavier vessels', heavier than the light craft at Dover etc.

However, that's the 'full on invasion/USM scenario'. in the 'Raid followed by quick evacuation' option we ought to be talking about E-boats. Which are a bit sturdier sea boats, just inadequate to carry all the (surviving) raiders back. Could fight or run away from the destroyers in normal conditions but hampered by decks full of raiders, some wounded or sea-sick. Tricky.

I think the raid idea is interesting but needs to be co-ordinated with what's happening with peace feelers from Halifax. And of course its target thought through. It won't be enough to force the UK to sign an armistice or agree to very unfavourable peace terms, as the OP suggests. But IF the raiders can inflict serious damage AND escape largely intact, then it would add to the pressure on the UK.

It's the exfiltration part that is very problematic. You may have to cut it to the scale of a small Commando raid, 100-200 men. Which then can't fulfil the harm done criteria. So back to square one??
 
This isn't "Churchill" Britain, this is "Halifax" Britain.

And as I said, it's the pro-war faction, that has to have control of censorship etc. to do as you said, which ITTL isn't anymore on the helm.
So what? Unless Halifax is secretly working for Hitler, then he's going to be working for a peace treaty because he believes that it is in the best interests of the United Kingdom. To get the best peace treaty he can (which is presumably the objective), then he will be seeking to ensure that the UK's negotiating position is as strong as possible. That means convincing the Germans that they can't successfully invade, because if they think an invasion will work then they aren't going to negotiate in good faith. In other words, Halifax has just as much interest in Churchill as showing an invasion attempt to be an utter fiasco, unless he's secretly working for the Nazi Party.
 
I've never really understood the idea that German parachutists would be able to slaughter the Home Guard. Most members of the HG were veterans of WWI, and were in their early to mid forties, so I doubt that they'd be so senile as to forget their training and launch human-wave attacks against German machine-guns. Most likely they'd pick off lots of Germans while they are coming down on their chutes, and then use their local knowledge to stalk and snipe the parachutists on the ground.
 
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