Peace with Britain in 1940: An alternate world war 2

NoMommsen

Donor
By taking those islands he can construct massive airbases and house dockyards full of LC.
What would take considerable time and resources as well as atm not existing capabilities (ship yards).

This allows the ability to execute landings in the Scottish Highlands and throughout Britain instead of just in the heavily defended Channel coast and Dover.
Be carefull !!! The "Unnamable Sea-mammal" guardians might chase you.
 
That's the main reason why Hitler wants the Faroe Islands and Iceland returned to the Danish puppet state. This would be at suggestion of Karl Dönitz and Raeder and allow the KM to better control the North Atlantic in a war against the US. Hitler is also afraid that as he and the soviets are deadlocked in fighting that the British may interfere and open the second front (same reason why France remains tied to Berlin). By taking those islands he can construct massive airbases and house dockyards full of LC. This allows the ability to execute landings in the Scottish Highlands and throughout Britain instead of just in the heavily defended Channel coast and Dover. He hopes that Britain will remain friendly however and potentially wooed over to Fascism itself.

I understand why Hitler would want them, the problem is that the British also know why Hitler wants them.
 
I understand why Hitler would want them, the problem is that the British also know why Hitler wants them.
The dilemma is that the public would be very weary of war with 90% of the British army taken captive or slaughtered at Dunkirk. The appeal of such a "peace with honor" that Hitler proposed would be too great ITTL.
 
What would take considerable time and resources as well as atm not existing capabilities (ship yards).

Be carefull !!! The "Unnamable Sea-mammal" guardians might chase you.
Thanks. But also Hitler issued "Plan 1941" just after the defeat of the Soviets ordering a massive buildup of the Kriegsmarine and to have several carries, half dozen battleships, dozens of destroyers and cruisers, and hundreds of U-Boats completed in the following years. This might make Naval supply of the "unspeakable mammal" possible and with the islands landings could be executed on many fronts.
 
The dilemma is that the public would be very weary of war with 90% of the British army taken captive or slaughtered at Dunkirk. The appeal of such a "peace with honor" that Hitler proposed would be too great ITTL.

Not really, public opposition to appeasement was fairly prominent even a month after Munich. The immediate relief was very quickly replaced by resentment over placating a violent regime. Neville Chamberlain was the most popular effigy to be burned on Bonfire night, 1938.

The German occupation of Czechia killed it off as a popular argument, by 1940 its remaining adherents were at best characterised as "Guilty Men", individuals who had weakened Britain due to their ignorance, at worst they were accused of being outright fascists.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Thanks. But also Hitler issued "Plan 1941" just after the defeat of the Soviets ordering a massive buildup of the Kriegsmarine and to have several carries, half dozen battleships, dozens of destroyers and cruisers, and hundreds of U-Boats completed in the following years. This might make Naval supply of the "unspeakable mammal" possible and with the islands landings could be executed on many fronts.
I fully agree with you about its feasability, given enough time.
But what is questionable is the prerequisite : obtaining Iceland (at least). That's the thing I struggle with to make it happen.
 
That's the main reason why Hitler wants the Faroe Islands and Iceland returned to the Danish puppet state. This would be at suggestion of Karl Dönitz and Raeder and allow the KM to better control the North Atlantic in a war against the US.
We can see this. So can the RN, Halifax and everybody else in Parliament. This is why they will not agree.
The dilemma is that the public would be very weary of war with 90% of the British army taken captive or slaughtered at Dunkirk. The appeal of such a "peace with honor" that Hitler proposed would be too great ITTL.
90% of the army weren't at Dunkirk.

Moreover, this is not peace with honour. This is utter capitulation. No British government is going to allow the Faeroes and Iceland to fall under the sway of an enemy. Not without being presented with a much greater defeat than the destruction of the BEF.
 
We can see this. So can the RN, Halifax and everybody else in Parliament. This is why they will not agree.

90% of the army weren't at Dunkirk.

Moreover, this is not peace with honour. This is utter capitulation. No British government is going to allow the Faeroes and Iceland to fall under the sway of an enemy. Not without being presented with a much greater defeat than the destruction of the BEF.
Probably right, though the psychological impact of the loss of the BEF would be heavy. The Germans might need to follow it up with some landings of troops (airborne most likely) before the British get organized to get such a capitulation. I dont think that would happen as Hitler would be even more overconfident than OTL that Britain will see sense and make peace.

Can I get away with reference to the USM in this context??
 
Probably right, though the psychological impact of the loss of the BEF would be heavy. The Germans might need to follow it up with some landings of troops (airborne most likely) before the British get organized to get such a capitulation. I dont think that would happen as Hitler would be even more overconfident than OTL that Britain will see sense and make peace.
Peace wasn't impossible. The peace outlined by the author is.
Can I get away with reference to the USM in this context??
In the sense that they'd occupy Iceland before the Germans got there, whatever the treaty said? Yes, I think you can.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Halifax isn't signing away Iceland. Nor the Faeroe Islands.
 
Last edited:
Thanks. But also Hitler issued "Plan 1941" just after the defeat of the Soviets ordering a massive buildup of the Kriegsmarine and to have several carries, half dozen battleships, dozens of destroyers and cruisers, and hundreds of U-Boats completed in the following years. This might make Naval supply of the "unspeakable mammal" possible and with the islands landings could be executed on many fronts.

Which will prove helpless against the RN
Or are you assuming that the British will just watch all this stuff being built (while at the same time holding off Russia) and do precisely nothing?
Not to mention that the Germans don't have the fuel for a big fleet, which was why the OTL naval plan was fantasy.

Is there actually a plan for this timeline, or is the purpose just for the Germans to roll continual 6's while everyone elserolls 1's?
 
Peace wasn't impossible. The peace outlined by the author is.

In the sense that they'd occupy Iceland before the Germans got there, whatever the treaty said? Yes, I think you can.

But, at the risk of repeating myself, Halifax isn't signing away Iceland. Nor the Faeroe Islands.
I don't really disagree with you. I think it's plausible that while "considering" such proposals the UK (with US assistance) arranges for "spontaneous" demonstrations in Iceland and the Faeroes demanding independence from Denmark. With hastily arranged plebiscites to confirm these demands. Naturally the UK feels obliged to honour the popular will. The US garrisons Iceland and the UK keeps hold of the Faeroes. Raeder might be hopping mad, it's unlikely Hitler will care as his thoughts will all be on Barbarossa.

I do think that under Halifax the UK would have been prepared to make peace with Hitler after the Fall of France. What he'd consider as appropriate would depend on how desperate he believed the UKs position is. Although probably even in this scenario it isn't what Hitler wanted. And Halifax would have been removed from office pdq if he gave away Malaya or left the RN too vulnerable.

Of course, one then has to have a POD that gets Halifax into power AND able to keep the Tories loyal to his Peace Faction. So a very White Peace that secures the Empire is all he could agree to. The above scenario doesn't really qualify, as you point out.
 

hipper

Banned
Probably right, though the psychological impact of the loss of the BEF would be heavy. The Germans might need to follow it up with some landings of troops (airborne most likely) before the British get organized to get such a capitulation. I dont think that would happen as Hitler would be even more overconfident than OTL that Britain will see sense and make peace.

Can I get away with reference to the USM in this context??

Not really

Iceland was occupied on May 10th 1940 while the German airborne troops were being decimated by Dutch reservists. hitler has no airborn troops or navy to send on such adventures.
 
Not really

Iceland was occupied on May 10th 1940 while the German airborne troops were being decimated by Dutch reservists. hitler has no airborn troops or navy to send on such adventures.
Damn, one USM work-around bites the dust!

Do you know how long it took for the German Parachutists to be reconstituted as a combat ready division? Obviously it was by mid-1941 (Crete) but could a couple of regiments be ready again by mid-June 1940? IF not, then the odds of even Halifax after no BEF evacuation conceding the OPs suggestions are minimal. Not ASB but very low, 1:10,000 or less for him to both agree and carry it through Parliamnet
 

hipper

Banned
Damn, one USM work-around bites the dust!

Do you know how long it took for the German Parachutists to be reconstituted as a combat ready division? Obviously it was by mid-1941 (Crete) but could a couple of regiments be ready again by mid-June 1940? IF not, then the odds of even Halifax after no BEF evacuation conceding the OPs suggestions are minimal. Not ASB but very low, 1:10,000 or less for him to both agree and carry it through Parliamnet

They took heavy casualties in men and Aircraft in May 1940 by September they had a couple of regiments in June they could have perhaps raised a couple of battalions.
 
They took heavy casualties in men and Aircraft in May 1940 by September they had a couple of regiments in June they could have perhaps raised a couple of battalions.
Thanks for the info. Probably not enough to spook the UK into surrendering then, without some sort of seaborne landing. Which is ASB.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Hmm, what about some kind of "Brandenburgers" operation (don't have to be the OTL Brandenburgers, maybe another "special" unit from navy and/or Paras and/or combination of all of it) ?

Something like Paras airborne landing on some points at the british coast (not necessarily the "most prominent", maybe somewhere in Kent ? ... Stonehenge ? :winkytongue:), supplied by some glider loads (still not very heavy equipment, I know). There they make a lot of noise, blasting something up and ... leave on some sneaked through subs/ E-Boats (at least some of them, there will and should be some corpses left for ... "prove").

Home Guard will boast to have driven the mighty germans away. The germans will counter with a wee smile, that these were only some small scale reconaissance/test missions. However, don't they prove, that germans can, if they would wish, land anywhere, even in Britain ?

Whatever prop the brits may start, I'm sure there will be an "invasion scare". ... Might help to get Halifax around to swallow at least some or one of the toads identified (Iceland, Färöer, Grennland).

... As it seems to me, this ARE the only "toads" there are in the armistice, as outlined by the OP.

Malta, as the only other one debated here, ... well, in another thread (I unfortunatly can't finf in the shortness of time) it was quite well established, that during the war cabinet crisis, Halifax actually considered to giving Malta to Italy, as a "price" for its "good mediation" services.
 
Hmm, what about some kind of "Brandenburgers" operation (don't have to be the OTL Brandenburgers, maybe another "special" unit from navy and/or Paras and/or combination of all of it) ?

Something like Paras airborne landing on some points at the british coast (not necessarily the "most prominent", maybe somewhere in Kent ? ... Stonehenge ? :winkytongue:), supplied by some glider loads (still not very heavy equipment, I know). There they make a lot of noise, blasting something up and ... leave on some sneaked through subs/ E-Boats (at least some of them, there will and should be some corpses left for ... "prove").

Home Guard will boast to have driven the mighty germans away. The germans will counter with a wee smile, that these were only some small scale reconaissance/test missions. However, don't they prove, that germans can, if they would wish, land anywhere, even in Britain ?
The problem is that what it proves is that any German landing isn't a threat, having been chased away by old men with pitchforks and shotguns. Which makes any peace deal which isn't Hitler rolling over and surrendering even more unlikely. The problem isn't convincing the British that the Germans can get there - the Luftwaffe are after all doing so all the time - but that they're a serious threat when they do so.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@pdf27
Your personal todays hindsight perception.

The number of killed Home Guards in relation to killed germans would prove different : that, as the germans will depict it, they withdraw deliberatly, as this were - as said - only reconaissance/test missions.
The public will see/perceive a crushed/slaughtered BEF and shortly after that the same soldiers, that did this roaming (almost) "freely" their coasts.

It's the public you, sry, the pro-war faction in Britain has to convince, that the very impressivly victorius Whermacht does NOT have the ability to actually invade Britain to counter the IMO in any case becoming present invasion scare.
 
Top