Peace in the West, Gas in the East (and perhaps Balkans)?

Hey Guys,

One of the modern cliché's of any World War Two TL is to have the Western allies come to a peace with Germany in 1940 after the Fall of France by PM Halifax. Now the Western peace treaty isn't the main point of this thread, though a couple of aspects of it is that France will stay under Philippe Pétain as the 'French State', and Britain will have to create a non-aggression pact with Hitler and thus secure Germany's future peace with a few of its main enemies (Britain, USA and France).

Now to the main point, let's say the Axis invades Yugoslavia and Greece as per OTL, now with no Western allies to worry about, could Hitler use gas against the Balkan nations? Let's ignore Hitlers own dislike for gas use and let's say he gives the go ahead. What would be the affects of its use in the Balkans? Let's say the wind isn't going to blow it off course to any of the Axis members nations and thus could keep Hungary, Italy and Germany protected. Could this lead to a much faster fall of Yugoslavia and Greece who (I doubt) would have stockpiles of gas themselves, and would thus collapse faster. Could we see a lot less partisan activity, or if we see the same amount or more could it be put down with the gas?

Secondly (ignoring the above statement) what would be the effects of the gas use in the Soviet Union? I don't know what kind of stockpiles the Soviets had, but I can guess the gas use by Germany alone in the SU would cause massive havoc in the Soviet lines.

Could you treat these as two separate scenarios, not scenarios in a single TL, but each being in different scenarios.

Thanks for helping guys :)
 
The simple question I have is why? Why would Hitler authorise the use of gas when Germany can concentrate her full might against the Balkans and then Russia? This would make the victories an absolute cakewalk in Yugoslavia (even more so than OTL if thats possible:rolleyes:) and Greece. Russia would be tougher, but it would still be a war of manouver and fast strikes, which in itself negates the need to use gas.

To make this alternative viable you would need to strengthen the USSR and create an, initially at least, more static war that would require the use of gas to break the deadlock. Perhaps remove Stalin's purges and have the concept of 'deep penetration' tactics developed further to include counter massing concepts that would perhaps negate the effect of Blitzkreig.

Stavka could develop these after seeing France fall to the Blitzkreig. Rush the production of KV1s and T34s so that the Red Army has enough heavy tanks to negate the German combat capabilities and hey presto, you have a series of big armour engagements that are chewing up Deutschlands best aryan warriors at an alarming rate. Desperate for a way to break the deadlock and convinced that he only has to 'kick in the door and the whole rotting edifice will come tumbling down', Hitler authorises the use of gas and chemical weapons.
 
Good points, and I like the POD you envisage in order for Hitler to use the gas in the SU. What kind of affects would a more militarized SU have? And then the after effects of the use of gas?
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't think a POD beyond the war in the west being over is needed. Gas could very well be used without British threats to gas German cities if they used gas against the Russians. Without this fear, the Russians will be in for some serious trouble. The war is initially going to go as planned, moving to fast for gas to be necessary, but as the fronts solidify, things get nasty. Imagine Leningrad, Stalingrad, and/or Kursk with Tabun.
Tabun won't be ready in quantities before 1942, Sarin until 1944, and Soman until 1946, which means don't expect its use before then in the Balkans.

However when they are first used, don't expect the Russians to be able to copy it for a while. They lagged significantly in chemical weapons until after the war. Expect much larger military and civilian casualties, though not necessarily deaths (though wounded will wish for it).
Don't know if it will be a war-winner, but with Britain out and a full on gas campaign in a race war, expect Russia to be badly messed up. All Germany's resources are available, not to mention she can purchase resources from abroad...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabun_(nerve_agent)
 

CalBear

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These are two very different result. The Balkan states have very limited ability to respond so the use of chemicals is going to provide German forces a siggnificant, albeit not decisive, advantage.

The USSR, however, has plenty of manufacturing capacity. In this case you wind up with a zero sum game that, in the end, is to the Soviet advantage becuase they have more meat to toss into the grinder.
 
I don't think a POD beyond the war in the west being over is needed. Gas could very well be used without British threats to gas German cities if they used gas against the Russians. Without this fear, the Russians will be in for some serious trouble. The war is initially going to go as planned, moving to fast for gas to be necessary, but as the fronts solidify, things get nasty. Imagine Leningrad, Stalingrad, and/or Kursk with Tabun.

Its a possibility, the question would be when are the first deployed and in what quantities. Are we assuming that significant extra forces are not available for Barbarossa? If so, then Leningrad presents as a first real oppurtunity (Typhoon burning itself out before reaching Moscow). So, are the older gases deployed asap, or do the Germans wait for enough Tabun to launch a devastating barrage? Whichever, the Sovs scream blue bloody murder on the international scene and the USSR romps home to first prize in the annual 'Hey I really Feel Sorry For Those Guys' competition;). Stalin orders immediate retaliation with everything they have (I don't know what the Red Army has available at this point, but hopefully it'll be more than just two Ukrainian peasents dropping their trousers and pointing their backsides at the Germans:D).

However when they are first used, don't expect the Russians to be able to copy it for a while. They lagged significantly in chemical weapons until after the war. Expect much larger military and civilian casualties, though not necessarily deaths (though wounded will wish for it).
Don't know if it will be a war-winner, but with Britain out and a full on gas campaign in a race war, expect Russia to be badly messed up. All Germany's resources are available, not to mention she can purchase resources from abroad...

Agreed, things get messy very quickly, even primitive gases will cause a lot of casualties. As CalBear pointed out the Russians have much larger stocks of meat ready for the grinder and the Nazis may have trouble in selling the Crusade against Bolshevism to occupied Europe and the rest of the world. Germany may find her intenational credit drying up, whilst Russia's may be increasing significantly. Perhaps a disusted Britain may reassess her position. Did Japan attack PH? Will America formally ally herself with the USSR? What will the ecologial affect be on European Russia and possibly eastern europe be?
 
Good points, and I like the POD you envisage in order for Hitler to use the gas in the SU. What kind of affects would a more militarized SU have? And then the after effects of the use of gas?

Tbh, a lot would depend on where you site the initial PoD and what ramifications it has. In this scenario we've greatly strengthened the Red Army's tactical and strategical flexibility by keeping all those Gulag spots empty. The Red Army is not capable of much finesse in its operations, but neither is it the blunt hammer that it was IOTL.

The military build up is something of a paper tiger, yes it helps win some early tactical victories, but once all those shiney new heavies have been used the cupboard will be bare, forcing them to rely on the outdated models that probably weren't thrown into the early battles. Ofc, the ramped up production lines would be churning out new heavies at a faster rate than the Germans, this combined with a more flexible command structure means a much tougher slog for the Germans. So that probably means that more and more gas will be used to break Red Army strong points, troop concentrations etc. Eventually the USSR will get its gas production ramped up. Who knows, maybe both sides wll start experimenting with biological warfare:

'ja mein fuhrer, zis weapon will only target zee biologically inferior slavs':D

The ecological impact would depend on how far you want the weapons exchange to go. AFAIK OTL France has no lingering problems in the areas that the gas was used. Ofc, other biological agents such as anthrax would leave large areas unihabitable even today.
 
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