Peace in Our Time

The Nazi government was never socialistic. The Nazi party had come to power with the support of many big businessmen who gave large donations to the party. The Nazis banned labor unions. The Labor Ministry didn't support true unions but company unions that were controlled by the owners. The Nazis didn't support central planning and even privatized state owned companies.

It is extremely unlikely that any German Marxist party would demand demand that children be raised communally and that the army would be composed of 50% women and blacks. Their weren't that many blacks in Germany and not even the Soviet Red Army had that many women in it.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Why, though, would these guys go out of their way top say, "Jews are OK!"? They are conservative, reactionary, and more than a little antisemitic by your own description. I was expecting a lack of further active anti-Jew policy, but a neglect of what there was.
As you may notice, they describe it in very vague terms. They aren't going to admit that there was actual state sponsorship of anti-semetic policy, but they will condemn "gangsterism" and other such things. I did say that the new government is anti-semetic, but they are anti-semetic in a different way - they hold derogatory and patronizing views of the Jews as typical of European upper-class society. Think of 19th century-style anti-semetism - they hold the image of the unwashed, money-grubbing deformed figures in the street. It's more of a "the filthy Jews!" style anti-semetism than "the Jewish filth!" kind. Kristallnacht was a very shocking event for many of the traditional conservatives in Germany, who knew that the Nazis had a low opinion of the Jews, but were shocked when they saw just how far the Nazis were willing to go to express that low opinion - they saw it as not only base and violent, but reminiscent of mob rule. This is mainly a reaction to that.
Is it too much to hope for a resurection of this very interesting TL? :rolleyes:
Tonight, I promise. Sorry!
The Nazi government was never socialistic. The Nazi party had come to power with the support of many big businessmen who gave large donations to the party. The Nazis banned labor unions. The Labor Ministry didn't support true unions but company unions that were controlled by the owners. The Nazis didn't support central planning and even privatized state owned companies.
Essentially, the Nazis were corporatists while they were in power. The system they tried to create was a corporatist one - labor unions and large business forming collective bargaining agreements negotiated by the state. They essentially wanted to create a two-tiered class system - the literati and intellectuals who would form the bureaucratic core of the state and industry, and the workers, who would take a collective share in industry and work along state guidelines, but in factories run under a capitalist management structure. It was a highly unconventional approach for socialism, given that it did not call for revolutionary action against the upper classes, but it was essentially a socialist system nonetheless. The industrialists in question were Nazi supporters because they were promised monopolies and positions of power after their ascendence to power (and in several cases delivered, most notably with the Krupp family). The system was nevertheless hostile to small businesses, entrepreneurship, and businesses who did not sign on to their ideology, so it could hardly be described as capitalist. Hitler also was quite vehemently opposed to capitalism, a view he espoused both publicly and (even more so) privately. After the war, he planned to use the political capital from the victory to purge the industrialists and the aristocrats - thus eliminating the last alternative source of power in Germany.
It is extremely unlikely that any German Marxist party would demand demand that children be raised communally and that the army would be composed of 50% women and blacks. Their weren't that many blacks in Germany and not even the Soviet Red Army had that many women in it.
The new parties were created by the junta. One is a somewhat lukewarm left-wing party, the others are created as absurd strawmen representing the far left and (Hitlerite) far right.
 
There's no way Sweden would join any anti-comintern pact. Sweden was firmly social democratic at this time, and the communist party actually supported the social democrats in parliament, along with the agrarians. While the social democrats were firm reformed socialists and had little regard for communist revolutionary ideals, Sweden was also firmly isolationist and the idea of neutrality was very firmly supported by the government, the people and the civil administration.

Sweden had very little regard for the nazi government and would have equally little regard for a reactionary rabidly anti-socialist and anti-union government. The unions and the employers, goaded on by government threats of legalisation since 1935, were finishing the grand Saltsjöbaden agreement, recognising each other (agreement was signed on the 20th of December 1938) as parties on the labour market. There's NO way in hell Sweden would suddenly ally itself with a reactionary Germany in these circumstances.

As for Norway, they were very pro-British at the time, while neutrality had strong support, an alliance with Germany would be of absolutely no value to the Norweigans. They are dependent on fishing, whaling and their enormous and very modern merchant fleet, all of which are dependent on British and Royal Navy benovelence. No way the Norweigans would ally with Germany, pro-Entente/British neutrality is the only likely path unless directly threatened by the Soviets.

As for the Finns, before the Winter War there's really no reason for them to anger the Soviets by joining the anti-compintern pact. They will rather search for Swedish gaurantees and want to secure possible deliveries of arms and food.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Because I've neglected this for a ridiculously long period of time and I'm not a person who likes to not finish what he's started . . .

December 3rd, 1938

Moscow - the Kremlin:

Molotov discusses an important diplomatic communique with Stalin:

Molotov: In short, what the Japanese are offering is a sphere of influence over all of Western China in exchange for aid in their invasion.

Stalin: How would we spin it in the Comintern?

Molotov: We're liberating the Chinese people from their reactionary warlord oppressors, aiding the Japanese in their ongoing anti-imperialist efforts in Asia that have already liberated 200 million of the Asian people who are engaged in the ongoing for independence.

Stalin: The music you make with a pen is more beautiful than any work by Tchaikovsky (although I only like the part with the cannons). What of my good friend Chiang?

Molotov: I imagine he will no longer be your good friend. It would be a shame, because Chiang's actions are governed by the deposits into his Swiss bank account, whereas the Japanese seem immune to such enticements. Shipments of oil do however seem to elicit a similar effect.

Stalin: Is it better to have Chiang in all China or ourselves in Western China? Might this make the Japanese to strong a neighbor for comfort?

Molotov: In all honesty, I find it a ridiculous proposal. They ask us to join a costly and damaging war in exchange for worthless land we never wanted or asked for, full of millions of Chinese who are not eager for "liberation".

Stalin: It is simple. We shall simply order our forces to occupy all of China after the war has ended.

Molotov: That seems an unlikely scenario. The Japanese would never cede us all of China.

Stalin: The Japanese are negotiating from a position of desperation. If they were negotiating from a position of strength, they would not negotiate at all. At present their forces have been retarded in their advance by a Chinese army that might be called comparable to Russia's in 1917. They know they have started a war they cannot win, so they grovel at our feet and beg our assistance. Do you remember how strongly they wanted the land they are now ceding to us in perpetuity? We fought a war over it, and only three months ago! If they cannot defeat an already defeated army, then they certainly cannot defeat the full might of the Red Army! Indeed, Zhukov proved my theorem.

Molotov: Other countries will be loath to accept our alliance if we show ourselves to be so deceitful.

Stalin: You do not understand the Oriental mind. The primary function of the Oriental mind to lie and deceive. The Japanese plan to betray us after we aid them, I am certain of it. I am certain that you, too, plan to betray me, and can assure you that your punishment shall be light, since you don't have any balls to cut off. Anyways, what I was saying is that the Asiatic race is committed only to deceit and intrigue. Therefore, we must think like Orientals. We shall stab them in the back before the thought even forms in their misshapen Asiatic brains. Tell the Japanese ambassador that we agree to his proposal.

Molotov: I shall do as you wish.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Okay . . .

December 8, 1938 - The German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin is launched.

December 18, 1938 - British intelligence indicates major Soviet troop redeployments, including 13 infantry divisions and 4 armored divisions, to Central Asia and Mongolia.

December 20, 1938 - 87% of German voters support the restoration of the Hohenzollern monarchy. The Emperor must pledge to respect the constitution of Germany (presently being rewritten). He is made honorary president of the Reichstag, but is given no other powers.

December 25, 1938 - Soviet troops occupy Outer Mongolia, annexing it to the Mongolian Peoples Republic as the Mengjiang Autonomous Soviet. Local forces offer nominal resistance, resulting in 17 dead Soviet soldiers and 48 dead Chinese. The Chinese and Japanese both issue formal diplomatic protests to Moscow, but no further action is taken.

December 28, 1938 - The Anti-Comintern Pact issues a joint statement condemning the Soviet actions in China. Chiang Kai-Shek raises the New Western Army in Chongqing from various warlord forces. At its heart is the 13th "Hubei" Division, which is to be trained to German standards by von Falkenhausen. This is the "training division" he suggested. Significant supplies of German Karabiner 98k rifles and ammunition, along with artillery, trucks, and railroad trucks begin to arrive in China.
 
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The Vulture

Banned
I'll keep an eye on this one for sure, got some very interesting ideas here.

And if you can't regularly update it, that's cool. I understand that you have a real life out there, and that obviously takes precedence.
 

wormyguy

Banned
January 17, 1939 - The newly commissioned German battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sail on a goodwill voyage to China. Japan claims to have found blonde-haired soldiers among the Chinese dead during the Guangdong Operation - but blames America.

January 21, 1939 - Germany asks the British ambassador to renegotiate the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. They ask that the German Hochseeflotte (newly renamed from the Kriegsmarine) be allowed 50% of the total tonnage of the British Royal Navy.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Havin reviewed this most interesting TL, I have to make the following comments:

As it concerns international politics,

The ongoing reapprochement between Britain and neo-Junker Germany makes a lot of sense. Actually, this is Chamberlain's dream scenario made true. A strong right-wing Germany that is eager to be an anti-Bolshevik bulwark, yet has none of the unchecked Nazi brutality and untrustworthiness. As long as Germany respects Munich and leaves rump Czechia alone (making it a satellite by slow and quiet economic and political pressure and enticements is OK, invasion was definitely not), leaves Alsace-Lorraine alone, and makes overall sensible demands in Poland and elsewhere (the request of a 50% naval standard seems in tone with the ones Britain generally allowed other great powers), it is going to find a friend in London.

France shall be less enthusiastic, but shall tow the British line in the end. Renewal of guanrantees about Alsace-Lorraine would make the French more friendly.

As Germany stood in Nov. 1938, it had satisfied pretty much its standing irredentist grievances, as far as the non-Nazi nationalists stood, except for Poland. This was an issue most dearly felt among the elites and the populace at large as well, no way a strong nationalist Germany can let the 1919-21 border with Poland stand. On the other hand, their claims would only extend to get the 1807 border back, the 1914 one if they can pull it off at all, but no more. Differently from Hitler, they are nowhere interested in making Congress Poland a settlement colony, although they would love it if they can make it a satellite.

As far as Britain is concerned, and France shall reluctantly agree in the end, they have absolutely no interest in backing what they did regard as unreasonable Polish claims even in 1919-21, if Germany respects Munich and keeps its demands on Poland moderate (ie. Danzig, the Corridor and the Upper Silesia in a Munich II situation, Posen too if there is a limited German-Polish war). Therefore, if Germany pushes for a Munich II settlement, Britain shall back "sensible" German demands on Poland. If Poland backs down, that's the end of the matter. If Poland is stubborn, and refuses to back down, especially if Germany does something to cast Poland as the aggressor (e.g. Berlin stirs up an irredentist unprsing in Danzig, which Poland sends the army to suppress), the Western powers shall happily wash their hands of the bullheaded Poles, as long as Berlin keeps its claims moderate (i.e. nothing more than the 1914 border). In both cases, Poland shall keep a grudge for a while, but can be mollified (especially if it kept Posen) with promises of expansion in Ukraine when the great anti-Communist crusade starts.

As Italy is concerned, they are still a rather valuable ally for Germany, and Mussolini may be made a somewhat reliable one, as long as he may be given some territorial gains and a sphere of influence to play victorious imperial overlord. As 1939 Europe stands, pretty much the only place where ha can do so, without stepping on the toes of Britain, and screwing the new Anglo-German detente, is the Western Balkans. He had long-standing plans to carve up Yugoslavia, and incidentally this would make other allies of Germany (Hungary and Bulgaria) rather happy. So I would suggest that Germany *covertly* supports an Italo-Hungarian-Bulgar move on Yugoslavia. While Britain would care a lot if Musso did mess with Greece, they don't give a damn about shaky mega-Serbia and quite probably would prefer fascist Italy vents its expansionist urges on that than on thier colonies. France is going to reluctantly agree, although the Serbs were old clients, they are not surely ones they would go to war for, especially if they are in a detente with Germany.

I know that Yugoslavia is a nominal member of the anti-Comintern bloc, but they are dead weight and a member that carries a lot of bad blood with several others. Far better to sacrifice them at the first occasion.

Although fascist Italy had a lukewarm army, the Yugoslav one was even worse, the Croats and Slovenes are going to disert en masse, and Hungary and Bulgaria shall enthusiastically join. Final result, Italy grabs Dalmatia, makes Slovenia and Croatia independent vassals, Hungary nets Vojvodina, Bulgaria grabs Vardar Macedonia. In the ensuing confusion, Italy can likely annex Albania without too much fuss. Mussolini shall be satisfied and much more reliable for the anti-Communist block.

Although this is going to make Hungary somewhat satisfied, they still have a long-standing grievance about Transylvania with Romania, one that needs to be settled or shall be a festering wound, with a war waiting to happen. Germany needs to back a side. Since Hungary is likely going to be the most reliable ally, I would suggest that once tensions between Hungary and Romania heighten, Germany backs Hungary and with British and Italian support, enforces the equivalent of the Second Vienna Arbitrate, returning northern Transylvania to Hungary. Romania shall be unhappy, but it can be mollified with promises of getting Transinistria when the great anti-Communist crusade starts.

In both the Yugoslav and Romanian crises, Germany should feign lack of interest, playing the "hinest middleman", all the way remarking how the status quo was unjust and untenable, and yet another misshapen product of Versailles.

Apart from these moves, that are necessary to complete the anti-Versailles resettlement as far as germany and its allies are concerned, Germany ought to keep play smart and continue the charm offensive towards Britain and France are concerned. Drop any demands for old colonies, stick to the naval pact, offer economic cooperation and guarantees for the British empire and for the European settlement once Poland, Yugoslavia, and Romania are dealt with. Keeping reinforcing the anti-Communist Pact, try to woo Britain and France in it, poke the USSR with subtle provocations in Eastern Europe and in East Asia. Sooner or later, either paranoid Stalin or overconfident Japanse will lash out in a blatant pre-emptive attack, and heroic Germany shall be free to play the role of the defender of civilization from the Bolshevik-Asiatic hordes, with Britain, France, and America being at least friendly neutrals, at best allies.
 

Eurofed

Banned
As it concerns the domestic settlement of post-Nazi Germany, it think you are amping the far-right authoritarian content of the new regime somewhat too much than it would be sensible.

Although the officer corps were no friends of Wiemar republic and the Social democrats, their political ideal was not authoritarian junta rule, but a restoration of the Kaiserreich settlement, which, for all its faults, was at worst a 2/3 liberal-conservative constitutional monarchy, 1/3 reactionary-authoritarian autocracy, hybrid. It had a democratic parliament with free elections, a liberal rule of law, non-socialist parties had a free rein, and even the trade unions and social democrats were grudgingly given a semi-recognized place in the system. Moreover, the officers, although they would be the ones playing the main role, were not the only actors in the anti-Nazi coalition: there were also many moderate conservative-nationalists, christian democrats, and yep even some Social democrats from the pre-Nazi parties, the civil service, economic elites, the Churches, and the new leaders would need the support of all these factions to rule fro long, and they would ask their political space, which a junta rule cannot allow. 1939 Germany was too complex and advanced a society to be effectively ruled by a junta for long, without the totalitarian apparatus that the Nazis had.

IMO anything that sets the new regime any more reactionary than the pre-1914 settlement needs to be subject to a very strict review about necessity and plausibility. The new labor laws and the thinly masked one party rule is really pushing it too far IMO.

In its place, I would propose that the generals restore a "guided democracy" much akin to the 20th century Turkish system. The military would tolerate a parliamentary democracy with a bicameral parliament, but demand the reinstating of the monarchy, a constitutional revision to strenghten the executive and end political fragmentation, and guarantees for a military budget largely outside parliamentary control. The army would remain strongly influential on the executive and the civil service and be granted the constitutional role of guardians of the political system. The monarchy would be restored (more on this later).

A new constitution would be written which would give large powers to the executive, mandate an electoral system that would curb poltical fragmentation, emphasize the rights of the military and legalize the liberal, chrstian-democrat, and nationalist-conservative parties while the Nazis and communists would be banned. Socialist parties and the trade unions would be given partial legalization with a legal regime of limitations much akin the one in the Kaisserreich (see Bismarck's old anti-socialist laws). All the same, the welfare system created by Bismarck would be kept and reinforced. Anti-Jewish legislation would entirely abolished.

The federal system of the Länder would be restored, with the various Lander having a constitution similar to the national one, but using Nazi gau as the basis to draw the new borders (for all their faults, the Nazi did a most welcome territorial rationalization, in comparison to the Kaiserreich post-feudal mess). Although the officers were staunch monarchists as it concerned the national heads of state, they were much more lukewarm about restoring the old kingdoms, although if say the Bavarians want to restore a Wittelbach at the head of the new Lander, good for them.

As it concerns the choice of the new Emperor, old William II was largely disgraced even among the nationalists and the officer corps because of his poor performance as a leader during the war and association with defeat and his flight to the Netherlands. His son, Wilhelm, also made a rather poor performance as an officer during WWII, had had close links with the Nazis, and was considered to be an hardcore reactionary and unacceptable to the moderate public opinion. Wilhelm II’s grandson, the prince of Prussia, also named Wilhelm, had entered a morganatic marriage and had renounced his right to the throne, leaving his younger brother Ludwig Ferdinand. He was a business man and quite an able administrator even though he had not pursued a military career. He had disassociated himself with the Nazis and during his time in Detroit and the rest of the US, he had acquainted with the British and American elites, including President Roosevelt. He was quite willing to play the role of the liberal British-style constitutional monarch and would win a lot of sympathy in Britain and America for the new regime.

On, and a minor nitpick: Instead of becoming German Emperor like his predecessors, Ludwig Ferdinand would become Emperor of Germany as the Empire now would include all traditional German lands of the Holy Roman Empire except for Bohemia-Moravia. Germany would be subsequently known as the Empire of Germany even if the alternative unofficial title of German Empire would remain in use in many circles. Of course the Imperial black, white and red would be restored as the German flag.
 
"A 50% tax is imposed on all donations to political and social organizations." This is a good idea for today... well maybe not so much for charities, but certainly for political organizations.
 

wormyguy

Banned
Eurofed - thank you for your interesting and highly enlightening (and detailed!) comments. I will say that you anticipated future developments in Europe quite well. I'll also say that you anticipated the future development in Germany quite well too - the individuals who happened to be put in charge of Germany also happen to be extreme-right reactionaries. Right now they're in the process of writing a new constitution which will decentralize power somewhat (and dismantle the Nazi governance apparatus, such as the Gaues) - and while their laws probably won't be carried over, they're trying right now to cripple the power of the left prior to the inevitable new election. The end result will probably look similar to a somewhat freer version of modern Russia. I'll think about retconning my choice of the crown prince as the new Emperor - although he's just a figurehead so it doesn't wholly matter. The Emperor is still the German Emperor, and it's still the German Empire, because it's now a popular monarchy (indicating that the days of absolutist monarchy are over and done).
 
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I think that this is an interesting scenerio. I played this with my HOI2 game last night as Germany in the 1938 scenerio. I had to use cheat codes to remove hitler and make Germay politically and culturay as you have in this timeline (only time I had to use the F12 keys). I had the initial moves with China as you state but fell short of becoming allies with them.

Territory wise it looks weird because Germany has the Sudentenland but does not take the rest of Chzech. There is no pact with Soviets and therefore no war started over Poland. The Soviets also do not act up for a few years.

Relations with GB and FR were dicey, they did not warm up. For some reason though, this Germany had excellent relations with the US?

I had Germany favor the Romanians with the Vienna dictate, did not want to shake the tree with GB and Fr. with forcing Romania to give up land.

For the years 38, 39, and part of 40, I industralised all of Germany.

By the end of '40, the Soviets invade the Baltic states and then declare war on Poland. Poland immediaely agrees to an alliance with Germany and cedes Danzig and other provinces to Ger. Since I had Germany focussed on industralsation, I had a weaker armed force than OTL. But to my surprise countires of cental and eastern eruope began joining the Ger-Pol alliance. Eventually, Bul, Hun, Czech, Italy, Spain, Port, Greece, Yugo and Belgium joined the alliance against the Soviets.

With all of the addtional forces, the European alliance was able to hold the Soviets from a line Warsaw and Cracow. The line held, then the German build up began that slowy pushed the Soviets back out of central Poland and also liberated the baltics. Ukraine was able to be liberated, Leningrad and Moscow fell. The fghting was rough for '41,'42, and '43 as the Soviets, German, and alliance forces slugged it out. Then the Soviets were stabbed in the back as the US and GB decalred war on them in '44 and advanced forces from India to central Asia. After this, the Soviets were broken and the race was on to capture as much Soviet territory as possibe.

Jap declared war on US, GB, and DEI in '42. I had Germany and the rest of the alliance decalre war on Japan but the main fight was with Stalin.

I cannot wait to see how this timeline unfolds !!!!!
 
"A 50% tax is imposed on all donations to political and social organizations." This is a good idea for today... well maybe not so much for charities, but certainly for political organizations.
Umm... why?

If I want to donate money to a party not in government, why should the current government take a 50% cut of that?
 
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