PC/WI: Wittelsbach North Italy?

[GauchoBadger]

Is it possible, in the period between the German Interregnum (1250's) and Napoleon's defeat (1815), for the scions of the House of Wittelsbach, which ruled Bavaria, to acquire significant estates in North Italy, such as Milan, Parma, Venice, Mantua, among others?
I can quickly think of two scenarios:
-Charles IV of Bohemia dying at Crécy, whilst Holy Roman Emperor Louis IV does not die of a stroke while hunting. This could strengthen the position of the Wittelsbachs within the imperial territories.
-Maximilian Joseph being awarded Venice sometime in the midst of the Napoleonic Wars.
Any further thoughts?

 

[JonasResende]

Well, if Johann Wilhelm of the Palatinate had had surviving issue with Anna Maria Luisa de Medici, an ideal bride for the boy would've been Isabella Farnese. If everything else goes as OTL (or close to schedule) with the Este leaving only a female heir then down the line it can be Tuscany-Parma-Modena in Wittelsbach hands, with possible annexations of Venice (at least the Terra Firma of the Republic) or Milan to follow.

 

[The Undead Martyr]

Well, if Johann Wilhelm of the Palatinate had had surviving issue with Anna Maria Luisa de Medici, an ideal bride for the boy would've been Isabella Farnese. If everything else goes as OTL (or close to schedule) with the Este leaving only a female heir then down the line it can be Tuscany-Parma-Modena in Wittelsbach hands, with possible annexations of Venice (at least the Terra Firma of the Republic) or Milan to follow.

Maybe have them trade Bavaria in exchange for Milan and Belgium.

 

[JonasResende]

Maybe have them trade Bavaria in exchange for Milan and Belgium.

Not sure what good Belgium would do to a prince ruling from Florence though?

 

[Nivek]

Not sure what good Belgium would do to a prince ruling from Florence though?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Road a wittelbasch version of that buddy

 

[JCVocke]

But by the time of the War of Spanish Succession the Spanish Road no longer existed. It had become basically impossible when Spain lost their territories in the Franche-Comté region. They also don't have nearly the diplomatic and military clout of Spain at its Height to pressure smaller states into granting them passage. If they were to gain such a state they would find it completely impossible to defend both Milan and Belgium, becoming basically a Satellite State of whichever Large State is able to provide enforceable protection, IE either France or Austria.

I think a better alternative in the same era is The Wittelsbachs exchanging Bavaria for Milan and Naples-Sicily. In such a situation their Power Base would be Southern Italy, but if that isn't acceptable for the challenge you could have them lose Southern Italy at about the same time and method as Austria did. In such a situation the Wittelsbachs could be compensated with the rotating list of North Italian Territories that were constantly trading hands in this era, and with Venice continuing to Languish a Wittelsbach annexation of most or all of the Republic would not be too big of a stretch if accompanied with skilled diplomacy.

 

[isabella]

But by the time of the War of Spanish Succession the Spanish Road no longer existed. It had become basically impossible when Spain lost their territories in the Franche-Comté region. They also don't have nearly the diplomatic and military clout of Spain at its Height to pressure smaller states into granting them passage. If they were to gain such a state they would find it completely impossible to defend both Milan and Belgium, becoming basically a Satellite State of whichever Large State is able to provide enforceable protection, IE either France or Austria.

I think a better alternative in the same era is The Wittelsbachs exchanging Bavaria for Milan and Naples-Sicily. In such a situation their Power Base would be Southern Italy, but if that isn't acceptable for the challenge you could have them lose Southern Italy at about the same time and method as Austria did. In such a situation the Wittelsbachs could be compensated with the rotating list of North Italian Territories that were constantly trading hands in this era, and with Venice continuing to Languish a Wittelsbach annexation of most or all of the Republic would not be too big of a stretch if accompanied with skilled diplomacy.

That exchange would be only Bavaria for Naples and/or Sicily, who are two rich kingdoms with a lot of lands and a strategical position so more than enough for compensate the loss of Bavaria. I can not see any valid reason for add Milan to them.
Milan or Belgium also will go alone in exchange for Bavaria

 

[JonasResende]

That exchange would be only Bavaria for Naples and/or Sicily, who are two rich kingdoms with a lot of lands and a strategical position so more than enough for compensate the loss of Bavaria. I can not see any valid reason for add Milan to them.
Milan or Belgium also will go alone in exchange for Bavaria

But by the time of the War of Spanish Succession the Spanish Road no longer existed. It had become basically impossible when Spain lost their territories in the Franche-Comté region. They also don't have nearly the diplomatic and military clout of Spain at its Height to pressure smaller states into granting them passage. If they were to gain such a state they would find it completely impossible to defend both Milan and Belgium, becoming basically a Satellite State of whichever Large State is able to provide enforceable protection, IE either France or Austria.

I think a better alternative in the same era is The Wittelsbachs exchanging Bavaria for Milan and Naples-Sicily. In such a situation their Power Base would be Southern Italy, but if that isn't acceptable for the challenge you could have them lose Southern Italy at about the same time and method as Austria did. In such a situation the Wittelsbachs could be compensated with the rotating list of North Italian Territories that were constantly trading hands in this era, and with Venice continuing to Languish a Wittelsbach annexation of most or all of the Republic would not be too big of a stretch if accompanied with skilled diplomacy.

I was actually suggesting a different line of of Wittelsbachs winding up in Italy (Pfalz-Neuburg inherits Tuscany), Max II keeps Bavaria, but when/if Pfalz-Neuburg-Tuscany (who by now have got Parma and Modena by marriage as well) inherits Bavaria, they trade it for Milan (instead of the Southern Netherlands).

 

[isabella]

I was actually suggesting a different line of of Wittelsbachs winding up in Italy (Pfalz-Neuburg inherits Tuscany), Max II keeps Bavaria, but when/if Pfalz-Neuburg-Tuscany (who by now have got Parma and Modena by marriage as well) inherits Bavaria, they trade it for Milan (instead of the Southern Netherlands).

That can work very well...

 

[VictorLaszlo]

I was actually suggesting a different line of of Wittelsbachs winding up in Italy (Pfalz-Neuburg inherits Tuscany), Max II keeps Bavaria, but when/if Pfalz-Neuburg-Tuscany (who by now have got Parma and Modena by marriage as well) inherits Bavaria, they trade it for Milan (instead of the Southern Netherlands).

What happens when Pfalz-Neuburg is awarded the Duchies of Jülich and Berg in an ATL Treaty of Xanten analogue.

 

[JonasResende]

What happens when Pfalz-Neuburg is awarded the Duchies of Jülich and Berg in an ATL Treaty of Xanten analogue.

Well, by the date I'm proposing (Johann Wilhelm and Mlle de Medici's only pregnancy was in 1692 IIRC), Xanten's passed more than a half century prior so no change (in theory). However, the Prusso-Palatine conflict over the Cleves inheritance of the 1740s might take a different turn. Particularly if said boy is raised to identify as more Italian than German

 

[JonasResende]

That can work very well...

Thank you. I thought so

 

[The Undead Martyr]

Not sure what good Belgium would do to a prince ruling from Florence though?

More for the Bavarian line, which presumably would be "offered" Belgium for Bavaria by the Austrians.

 

[GauchoBadger]

Bumping...
I've been thinking about a scenario whereas Napoleon dies in the midst of his invasion of Russia, and his vassals across Europe remain mostly intact in regards to their pro-French policy. Could developments between Eugene of Beauharnais' state in north Italy and the brand new Kingdom of Bavaria carry on to the possible conclusion of an Italo-Bavarian personal union in the following 19th century?

 

[Superninja76]

Galeazzo II has no children, like his elder brother. Bernabo, as historically, has a billion daughters and marries the eldest, taddea, off to Stephen the magnificent fop. When the male line of visconti fails as a result of bernabo's death, quite possibly due to a coup, the female line, manifest in taddea, inherits, and thus the children of taddea (as both seemed capable of having a few rugrats) are wittelsbach, who inherit both bavaria-ingolstadt and visconti milan. After a prolonged regency, the rugrats are able to reunite Bavaria with the resources of Milan, and potentially also reconquer tyrol, quite possibly resulting in a continguous Bavaria and Milan, both ruled by wittelsbach. After that.. who knows? Stephens grandfather was roman emperor, after all.

 

[PoorBoy]

I think the Bavarians briefly held Tyrol during the Napoleonic Wars. Depending on your definition of Northern Italy, it may be possible for them to get a hold of the Illyrian Provinces (Gorizia, Trieste, Istria, and 'Carniola') if they get on the good side of Napoleon.