Was it ever possible for Rome to have expanded into, say, southern Germania and what would IOTL become Austria and the Czech Republic, moving in from the Alpine passes, while mostly ignoring Gaul for the time being? Obviously, that’d require their flanks to be secure (earlier pacification of Illyria, maybe). If that were to happen, what would the possible ramifications be?
PC/WI: Rome expands into Noricum and Germania before Gaul?
- Thread starter GauchoBadger
- Start date
Quite possible if Julius Caesar gets Dalmatia instead of Cisalpine Gaul.
Is not Caesar a by product of Gaul contradictions? Every lime can get a Caesar expansion pack with a ASB Caesar analogue? Or that kind of campaign as only possible due to the very specific circumstances on that we trigger the butterflies by giving such mess to a great personality theory avatar?
Trying to move legions through whole mountain ranges might be possible. Supplying them would not.
So. No.
So. No.
The limes will be advanced to the Danube that much earlier. Beyond that, Caesar may make a reconnaissance, as he did OTL in Britain, but won't necessarily try to make permanent conquests. I just depends what the region has which is worth annexing.
Hecatee
Donor
I don't think so : strategically it makes little sense (overextension, difficulty of communication and supplies, no added protection to Italy).
Only if your left flank (Gaul) is secure can you think of making such a move (for both the Northern and Eastern flanks are hard to secure : the Danube can and will be crossed.), otherwise there will be too many threats. Even Marius did not use the opportunity given by the destruction of the Cimbri and Teutones to conquer those destabilized and weakened areas !
Only if your left flank (Gaul) is secure can you think of making such a move (for both the Northern and Eastern flanks are hard to secure : the Danube can and will be crossed.), otherwise there will be too many threats. Even Marius did not use the opportunity given by the destruction of the Cimbri and Teutones to conquer those destabilized and weakened areas !
Why should they? The Gauls of Noricum were allies of the Roman empire - even BEFORE Ceasars time.
Actually Ceasar did get three provinces (Illyricum, Narbonensis and Gallia cisalpina)
There's nothing technically stopping them. The tribes in this area were centralized enough that the transfer of administration would be relatively simple, but not centralized enough that they would be able to pose a credible opposition to the legions. But, in spite of that, there's no real reason to go North. The primary impetus (according to some) for the massive northern expansions during the late-Republic and early Empire were to address periodic border insecurities with the Gauls and Illyrians, however, the indirect shield provided by the Alps made it such that few credible threats could be posed by armies in the region. The Cimbric War demonstrated this - that even a large and well-motivated force of invaders would have difficulty mounting an invasion through this region. No serious threat would be posed to this area until the Marcomannic Wars two centuries later, so there's really no reason for the Romans to expend their efforts here, especially when the aforementioned threats of the Gauls and Illyrians were both more pressing and more profitable.
Miguel Lanius
Banned
Is there anything profitable there? AFAIK the Romans of the time thought of Germany as a bunch of forest inhabited by barbaric savages.
What parts of Gaul are you referring to, and what time frame? It would be pedantic of me to point out that Cisalpine Gaul would be in the way, but I did it anyway just there.
Meanwhile, if we’re looking at any period after 125 BC, when Narbonennsis was incorporated, then the rest of Gaul is way too convenient relative to Germania.
They were probably less densely populated and economically productive as a simple function of geography (i.e. less arable land and fewer navigable waterways per capita in Noricum and Pannonia then Gaul)
So were many of the tribes Caesar subjugated. He siezed the Helveti moving into the lands of Roman allies as a pretext to invade. Caesar didn’t really care.
And again, Caesar didn’t exactly bring a bunch of supplies up anyway.
There is - Noricum (the Kingdom) had salt mines (very productive) and more important the so called "Ferrum Noricum" was "weapon" grade iron (IIRC high mangane and low phospor content) - in Addition there was (IIRC) Gold found in Noricum.
The "Regnum Noricum" was (one of) the last "superegional" powers mad up of Gauls (acztually they seem to have mingled with older local populations, They were an alliance of 13 "tribes" and had an elected king. (one of the last) was Voccio who was a supporter of Caesar during the cicvil war. In addition his brother in law was Ariovist - which seemed NOT to have made Problems after Ceasar defeated him.
The alpine Region is both a barrier and a migration lane. - But the "northern territories only became important after the conquest of Gaul. To have a fast lane between Gaul (Germania) and Illyricum. Thats why Augustus conquered much of the to date Independent territory (Western Alpes then Eastern Alps (Noruicum seems to have gladly joined the Empire) then Central Aölps with the territory between Alpes and Danube (Raetia).
Could well be. OTOH, Augustus saw them as worth conquering (and retaining. After Teutoberg, he wrote off "Germany"[1] north of the Danube, but not south of it). His adoptive father might have taken a similar view.
[1] A misleading term. Iirc much of it was still Celtic in population. In Caesar's time, "Germania" was more a geographical term than an ethnic one.
I think you'd be able to have this with a PoD that tied Caesar to the Danube. Danube means his ambitions are in Pannonia and the Carpathian Basin (and the Getae region), areas he intended to campaign in IOTL.
That creates a different frontier to Gaul, with the Danube being the heart of a NW movement into Germania, and the need to fortify the Carpathian passes.
No Caesar in Britain, or Gaul changes that up a good bit, but by my understanding, the Carpathian basin is more of a settlement effort than Gaul would be, and as such less wealthy.
But that changes our story only a little. Expanding into Noricum and potentially OTL Czechia makes sense from that perspective, if the Romans learn anything about it, but it'd certainly be a case of strengthening the frontiers that had been captured, and its still an impressive land-grab.
I can't help but think that it is a Poor Mans Gaul. Potentially a springboard for THIS Caesar to play politics to invade Gaul outright, but I can't fathom if it'd be better or worse for him. It might instead mean that he adds a fourth to the alliance, who would be the guy to conquer Gaul, or complete Illyria whilst Caesar uses his Illyrian successes to relocate to Gaul. Perhaps even Titus Labienus could be a player there. Whether that means we have a Pro-Senate Illyrian force that comes to bite Caesar, who knows.
That creates a different frontier to Gaul, with the Danube being the heart of a NW movement into Germania, and the need to fortify the Carpathian passes.
No Caesar in Britain, or Gaul changes that up a good bit, but by my understanding, the Carpathian basin is more of a settlement effort than Gaul would be, and as such less wealthy.
But that changes our story only a little. Expanding into Noricum and potentially OTL Czechia makes sense from that perspective, if the Romans learn anything about it, but it'd certainly be a case of strengthening the frontiers that had been captured, and its still an impressive land-grab.
I can't help but think that it is a Poor Mans Gaul. Potentially a springboard for THIS Caesar to play politics to invade Gaul outright, but I can't fathom if it'd be better or worse for him. It might instead mean that he adds a fourth to the alliance, who would be the guy to conquer Gaul, or complete Illyria whilst Caesar uses his Illyrian successes to relocate to Gaul. Perhaps even Titus Labienus could be a player there. Whether that means we have a Pro-Senate Illyrian force that comes to bite Caesar, who knows.