PC/WI: Napoleon Conquers the Ottoman Empire

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by kernals12, Apr 14, 2019 at 11:18 PM.

  1. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Could the Ottoman Empire go the way of the Holy Roman Empire in the Napoleonic Wars?
    And if they did, what impact would it have? Would Arab Nationalism rise sooner than IOTL? How does Geopolitics in the 19th century change?
     
    Albert.Nik likes this.
  2. Albert.Nik Transhumanist,Aspiring Metaphysicist

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2018
    Incredibly interesting! If he spreads a Secular Revolution and Enlightened European Science and Philosophical ideas in the Middle East and Ottomon Empire after conquering them,it would be super interesting!
     
  3. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Only if Nappy invades the Balkans at the expense of some of the OTL theaters, which probably means either instead of invasion of Spain or instead of invasion of Russia: he hardly would be able to march on Istanbul while being attacked by one of the coalitions. Of course, it is anybody’s guess why would he do something as bizarre as trying to conquer the Ottoman Empire, especially taking into an account that starting from approximately 1806 he was covertly supporting the Ottomans against Russia. What would be the geopolitical reasons? Would these reasons justify the risk involved in marching all the way to Asia?

    The more probable scenario is a partial destruction of the Ottoman Empire during that period by the Russians (for which Russia should not participate at least in the 4th coalition and better in the 3rd as well). A greater success in the OTL version of the war of 1806 - 12 would allow to leave the Ottomans without Moldavia, Walachia, Bulgaria and probably even Greece and Serbia with a loss of Ottoman Armenia in Asia. If at the same time Persia attacks Ottomans, more territory in Asia is lost (in OTL in 1806 -12 Russia attacked both Ottoman Empire and Persia). However, it is hard to expect that it is going to lose all the Arab territories. OK, you can imagine a successful uprising in Egypt supported by the Russian and British navies.

    Of course, the Ottoman Empire being quite different structurally from HRE, it can hardly be expected that it is going to change its name. Not sure if there was already a time for Arab nationalism and almost definitely not a good time for the things like secular revolution or spreading European philosophical ideas (does not look like they are excessively popular on the ME even now :) ).
     
    EnvarKadri likes this.
  4. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Maybe he has a change of heart ITTL and decides he likes the Tsar.
     
  5. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    It was not a matter of his liking or disliking Alexander, it was a matter of Alexander disliking him.
     
  6. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Ok, maybe Alexander has a change of heart.
     
  7. DAv Middle Class... sorry

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Location:
    England
    Then you're going to have to change the economy of Russia, which was suffering thanks to the Continental Blockade. Even without that, both France and Russia had competing interests in Germany and Poland and then there's Napoleon's personality of never wanting to be seen as an equal when he wanted to be everyone's superior.
     
    alexmilman likes this.
  8. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Errrr.... As I understand, you are from MA so, to make a clear analogy, what are the chances for the People Republic of Cambridge voting overwhelmingly Republican? :)

    Alexander (just as Cambridge) had an unbeatable combination of strong personal phobias and what he persieved to be the national interests.
     
  9. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    You can add that Alexander did not want to be anybody’s second either and had an example of his father.
     
  10. DAv Middle Class... sorry

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Location:
    England
    That too, but he could play nicer with others than Napoleon at least.
     
    alexmilman likes this.
  11. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Did not really help during his visit to Britain: he tried but was blamed for pretty much everything including the good manners. Neither did it help too much at Vienna.
     
  12. TRH Tyrannosaurus Rex Handler

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2012
    There's one other scenario that springs to mind for an Ottoscrew: the Osman dynasty was in danger of extinction in 1808, when Mustafa IV overthrew his cousin Selim and then tried to kill his brother Mahmud as well. If he'd succeeded only to die himself afterwards, then there'd be no heir to the throne, and the Empire would fall into chaos.
     
    Koprulu Mustafa Pasha likes this.
  13. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Location:
    Sarajevo
    Alemdar would not kill Mustafa outright without Selim or Mahmud. He knew better. But after 4 months of Mahmud II rule in 1808, the Janissaries did want to murded Mahmud AFTER Mustafa IV was executed expressing their dislike of the Sultan to get the House of Osman extinct.
     
    TRH likes this.
  14. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Ottoman Empire is a historical term. During its existence, it was just called Turkey.
     
  15. DAv Middle Class... sorry

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Location:
    England
    On the other hand, never overthrew a long established monarchy and then replaced them with his brother of questionable worth. Left Russia in a stronger position as well, so there's that going for him.
     
  16. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    You can't compare the actions of voters with those of 19th century heads of state. Many of them had no problem switching allegiances during the Napoleonic Wars.
     
  17. alexmilman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    I just tried to illustrate the probability of “changing the heart”, which has nothing to do with the political feasibility. In both cases probability is too close to zero to consider seriously.

    Alexander was forced to make peace with Napoleon and even to fake the friendliness but this does not mean that he stopped disliking him.
     
  18. FranzAncheNo Citizen of the Republic of Pistoia

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Location:
    Republic of Pistoia
    This is great!
    Imagine a "Greek" Campaign instead of the Russian one.
    It may be useful to improve relationships with Austria and Russia.

    The partition is actually a very nasty problem, but I think we can be sure about a couple of things.
    • If Austria participates gets Bosnia (At least.).
    • Napoleon takes Istanbul* (Probably also something else.) as personal possession and crowns himself Basileus.

    * With another name. "Nova Roma" or "Constantinople" making an epic comeback? I'd bet on the first one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 1:00 PM
  19. kernals12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2017
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    I see that you're avoiding talking about the Middle East.
     
  20. Koprulu Mustafa Pasha Sadrazam of the Roman Empire

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Location:
    Sarajevo
    The Middle East won't be conquered. Nappy does not have the Navy to cross the Bosporus while the Royal Navy can block him. It is the Balkans, and Balkans alone.