PC/WI: Most of the Muslims in the Crusader states convert to Christianity?

@LSCatilina Define Muslim... If we will separate Christianity for the sake of harming the Crusader position, so too can we for the Muslim. Not all the Muslim in Syria were mainline pro Ayyuib Sunni and within that camp you have many different interest groups.

Regardless of majorities, you and I know well what matters is not absolute population numbers but whom is in control of the weapons, militia and martial prowess.

All comparisons are flawed to an extent. Pointing out inconsistencies within different areas does not definitively mark away undeniable similarities which are universal in all societies or remove possibilities.
 
A lot depends on how great are the incentives for conversion, both positive and negative. By the time of the first Crusader kingdoms the area had been mostly Muslim for about 300-400 years, having been mostly Christian with some Jews prior to that. Spain and Portugal had been Muslim in many areas for much longer and were totally Christian again pretty quickly. If the Crusader Kingdoms can remain militarily strong, and not on a shoestring, then you could see a large percentage of the Muslim population convert. At first those who would gain quickly, later a broader spread of the population. Given the death penalty in Sharia for those who leave Islam, a convert has to be pretty sure that they won't be facing a Muslim reconquest to take the step. As others have said, while conversion may be pro forma initially, after a generation or two almost all will be convinced Christians.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Spain and Portugal had been Muslim in many areas for much longer and were totally Christian again pretty quickly.

That's because Spain expelled its (non-closeted) Jews and Muslims, though.

As others have said, while conversion may be pro forma initially, after a generation or two almost all will be convinced Christians.

Actually, it might take a bit longer than that; indeed, apparently the problem of crypto-Jews caused Spain to restrict settlement in the New World to those people whose families were Christian for at least three generations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism

If there were almost no crypto-Jews in Spain by that time, then such a restriction wouldn't really be necessary.
 
I know that they were certainly the stronger power at the time, but I don't recall them being such a force that Muslims would not even dare put the sea against.
There's a difference, that said, between a more stable connection and "gtfu of my sea".
Now, thing is, Arabo-Islamic seafare wasn't that fearsome in Mediterranean sea, at least before the XIVth and especially the XVth and Mongols. Not that it didn't had an impact, but generally it was decentralized and more or less dependent on already present naval structures (at least in a first time). It could even go to pure and simple rejection (a bit like Romans did) : Abul' Arab Mus'ab, an Arabo-Sicilian, outright refused to undergo a naval journey because sailing was what Christians did, not Arabs.

There's a given part of rationalisation, granted, but there was a cultural tendency at work there : even Arabo-Andalusian fleet could be not that much more of a coast guard, pumped up sometimes (due to the Viking threat for exemple) and several Islamic trade places were content enough (even in the Xth) to be at the recieving end of sea trade roads.

Not to say, again, that Arab seafare didn't existed or wasn't organized (you had a list of sailors or sea-able men in Egypt, for instance) and wasn't dominant for centuries in western Mediteranean (it does help that safe Goths, nobody there safe Romans had a noteworthy fleet in the VIIIth) but the rise of Italian trade navies (which doesn't came from scratch, but a by-product of Roman-Arab wars) was less of a challenge to Arab navies, than them filling a niche that nobody minded them to do (pirates less than anybody else, before realizing it might have been a bad idea).

By the XIIIth, you had an important effort in North Africa (especially by Hafsids), but you never really had a problem from the XIth onwards to have a stable connection between Italy and Syria : I may ramble there, but if there wasn't, you wouldn't have a successful First Crusade.

@LSCatilina Define Muslim...
Anyone that does consider itself as such : when it comes to basic identitarian features, especially in a period where religion comes first on this, I'm not sure we should make things more complex.

If we will separate Christianity for the sake of harming the Crusader position, so too can we for the Muslim.
We could, but there's no real need for this as what we need to consider, if we want to alter their history, is how Latins saw Muslims : and they barely took the time to do so. Granted, poulains ceased to belive that Muslims were pagans that worshipped Hermes, Apollo and Mahomet as a good part of Europe tought; but I don't remember a source where they demonstrated a real interest distinguishing Muslims (not nearly as much they did with Syrian Christians).
You'd argue, I think, that it could change a lot as the religious-political affiliation could create difference when it comes to who converts, and who doesn't : but much of the convertees sems to have happened more on happenances (such as captive marriage) or social (poor Muslims, probably some reconversion from Christianity either individual or familial), which wasn't that tied to sub-groups.

Regardless of majorities, you and I know well what matters is not absolute population numbers but whom is in control of the weapons, militia and martial prowess.
Not only : you mentioned that bureaucracies tended to remain in place when convenient, and in Syria, it was extremely convenient to the point qadis remained the basic structure even along part of the coast (which was traditionally favoured by French and Italians)

I still think for that having a real will to convert Muslims (and not to passively accept it, if not refusing it as it sometimes happened), you need to have the same mindset than in the XIIth, where the problematic situation actually forced some (and not all, far from it) to consider missionary effort to support the rump Latin states, but the key is having such a situation without the ongoing fall of course.
 
There's a difference, that said, between a more stable connection and "gtfu of my sea".
Now, thing is, Arabo-Islamic seafare wasn't that fearsome in Mediterranean sea, at least before the XIVth and especially the XVth and Mongols. Not that it didn't had an impact, but generally it was decentralized and more or less dependent on already present naval structures (at least in a first time). It could even go to pure and simple rejection (a bit like Romans did) : Abul' Arab Mus'ab, an Arabo-Sicilian, outright refused to undergo a naval journey because sailing was what Christians did, not Arabs.

There's a given part of rationalisation, granted, but there was a cultural tendency at work there : even Arabo-Andalusian fleet could be not that much more of a coast guard, pumped up sometimes (due to the Viking threat for exemple) and several Islamic trade places were content enough (even in the Xth) to be at the recieving end of sea trade roads.

Not to say, again, that Arab seafare didn't existed or wasn't organized (you had a list of sailors or sea-able men in Egypt, for instance) and wasn't dominant for centuries in western Mediteranean (it does help that safe Goths, nobody there safe Romans had a noteworthy fleet in the VIIIth) but the rise of Italian trade navies (which doesn't came from scratch, but a by-product of Roman-Arab wars) was less of a challenge to Arab navies, than them filling a niche that nobody minded them to do (pirates less than anybody else, before realizing it might have been a bad idea).

By the XIIIth, you had an important effort in North Africa (especially by Hafsids), but you never really had a problem from the XIth onwards to have a stable connection between Italy and Syria : I may ramble there, but if there wasn't, you wouldn't have a successful First Crusade.
Thanks this helps a lot!
 
Was it feasible to have most of the Muslims in the Crusader states convert to Christianity?

Also, if so, what would the consequences of this have been? For instance, would the Crusader states have been stronger in this TL since they could recruit an army from among the locals?
On the same note as the County of Tripoli, Cilician Armenia was a Crusader state of sorts, and it certainly had a Christian majority (though that majority wasn't particularly keen on religious union with Rome).
 

Riain

Banned
The decisive factor that determined the outcome of the Crusades was that the Crusaders did not secure the overland route through Anatolia, or secure supply lines and reinforcements.

An open route across Anatolia would mean a steady trickle of pilgrims of the type who couldn't afford passage on an Italian ship, which would gradually increase the Frankish and thus Poulain population as some of these stayed behind to settle in the area. Such settlers also married Muslims IOTL, the children of which became Turcopoles.
 

Riain

Banned
Here is a post I rigged up years ago about the Demographics of the Crusader States, From Stephen Runciman's enjoyable books.

Runciman, and I haven't come across any other description in detail, says that in the KoJ there were not 1000 knights, barons etc resident and their non-combattant relatives not much more than 1000, so the entire lay upper class was about 2-3000. Antioch, Edessa and Tripoli probably had about the same in total. In the north there was some intermarriage with Greek and Armenian aristocracy but further south there was no local Christian aristocracy but there was a strain of Komnenes in the royal family bloodlines.

The sergeants settled on their lords fiefs and by 1150 were beginning to form the class of poulains, by 1180 there were about 5000 of them and they were intermarried with local christians. Runciman considers Turcopoles were probably recruited from 'half-castes' who spoke their mother's language, so they were part Frank as well.

There were colonies of Italians in virtually every coastal city and town, but apart from Acre these were only a few hundred stong and didn't mix with their neighbours.

The majority of the population was composed of native Christians. In KoJ almost all were Orthodox and CoT had some Maronites. Further north the Christians were mainly Jacobites with large colonies of Armenians and large groups of Greek Orthodox in Antioch, Cicilia and Lattakieh.

In the 1st Crusade large numbers of Muslims emigrated, including virtually all the large landowners, but there were Muslims around Nablus. In many districts conquered later the Muslims didn't leave, this is important since much of the coast wasn't incorporporated until many years later, Sigurd of Norway helped capture Sidon as late as 1110 and Tyre didn't fall until 1124. In northen Gallilee the locals were Muslim and further north heretical Muslims acknowledged Frankish rule.

Runciman says that the crusade of 1101 affected the whole crusading movement. The road across Anatolia remained unsafe, even the Byzantines had to operate at the end of long and exposed communications. Instead of the thousands of useful colonists this crusade should have bought only quarrelsome and discredited leaders arrived, and Outremer had plenty of quarrelsome leaders already. Pilgrims and potential immigrants were afraid to travel by land but couldn't afford the fares to come by sea, and those who could strengthened the Italian maritime states.
 
So if India's north western border is an open door, and Muslim conquest can only be avoided by ending/preventing their rule over Iran and Central Asia, that raises the question of who will be invading India in their place? Another nomadic group looking for a rich plain to build skull pyramids on? A resurgent Sassanian Persia looking to bolster its coffers in preparation for yet another apocalyptic clash with Rome? The Tibetan Empire?
Wrong thread, I think.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Near to impossible, except if we consider rump Latin states the size of the kingdom of Cyprus. You simply never have enough Latins to undergo a complete conversion, would they even want to attempt doing so which they never really wanted.

Hang on--why exactly do Latins need to convert? After all, they're already Christian.

While Syria was hardly inhabited by Muslims only, these formed the relative majority of the region : you could argue that it really happened in the Xth century

Syria before the 10th century was mostly Christian?

and that Spain underwent conversion of larger places; but it took litterally centuries with a dominant position with large ressources at hands, neither of them that Latins had.

Couldn't a continuous influx of European settlers have strengthened the Crusader states and thus made it easier for them to do this?
I would say if the Crusader states had lasted longer you would have seen increased conversion. I suspect if they had survived until the mid 16th century Muslims would only have made up a very small minority at that point. Of course if it had been reconquered by then, we would see the Muslim population grow again.

So, basically, we need to figure out how to make the Crusader states survive indefinitely?

But there's a good chance Christians would have stayed a majority.

Why do you say that?

I also suspect that groups like Alawites, Alevis, Druze and Lebanese and Syrian Shia would have become heterodox Christians.

Would the Sunni Muslims have largely remained Sunni Muslims?

The Muslim majority was not large. There was successful conversions in Crete, Cyprus, eastern Anatolia all in the byz reconquests. However an issue was the latins looking down on the eastern orth. You need to resolve this. Also u need to make the states safe. To do this you need to capture the inner cities not just the port cities. Take Aleppo , damascas, hams, and you would not allow major stageing areas for Arab attacks. Take Egypt any u have the large Coptic population. Egypt gives you the fiancées.
So

1. Control damascas and Aleppo
2. Take Egypt
3. Support all Christian sects

Do this and hold it for 3-4 centuries.. Tax Muslims an extra 5-10% and u have concerted the population

Taking Egypt would be quite a challenge for the Crusaders, no?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Here is a post I rigged up years ago about the Demographics of the Crusader States, From Stephen Runciman's enjoyable books.
Two questions:

1. Are you suggesting that most Muslims in the Crusader states emigrated after these territories were conquered by the Crusaders?

2. Why didn't the Church and wealthy royalty and noblemen pay the fees for aspiring immigrants to the Outremer so that they could travel there by sea?
 
Hang on--why exactly do Latins need to convert? After all, they're already Christian.
No, I meant you never had enough Latins in Syria to really appeal or even control a mass conversion, at their political height at least.

Syria before the 10th century was mostly Christian?
It's hard, if not impossible, to really give guesstimates : but by the early Xth, it's probably that you had a Christian majority (altough divided along chalcedonian and non-chalcedonian lines) and more on countryside than urban or semi-urban centers.

Couldn't a continuous influx of European settlers have strengthened the Crusader states and thus made it easier for them to do this?
That was the problem of Latin States : they never really had a continuous influx of settlers, no matter how hard they tried : you did have a Latin settlement, mostly French in the foothills north of Jerusalem, and Franco-Italian on the coast, but it was limited and mostly stuck on more safe regions. Even half of the settlement that you had in Spain or Italy would be really, really hard to pull IMO.

Taking Egypt would be quite a challenge for the Crusaders, no?
Giving their numbers? Near to impossible, safe partially, even without the shoddy planning Latins did on this regard.

Are you suggesting that most Muslims in the Crusader states emigrated after these territories were conquered by the Crusaders?
It was the case, but mostly on urban and semi-urban centers (and were replaced by eastern Christians) and in places immediatly conquered in 1090's which were only the first territorial establishments : but Crusaders expanded from there in the 1100's to all the coast.

The later conquest, as @Riain pointed, didn't provoked massive emigrations, and we actually know you had an Islamic immigration in Latin States, partially because Latin management of the land was considered more fair (among other reasons, because it was less captative) to peasants.

Why didn't the Church and wealthy royalty and noblemen pay the fees for aspiring immigrants to the Outremer so that they could travel there by sea?
Why the Church, princes or lords would pay to have their peasants and their revenues (material or fiscal) going away, especially giving that the incitative to live in a far land without this much security (altough French settlers were relatively safe in the XIIth century) wasn't that urgent.
Princes fought themselves a war about how attract the serves, semi-serves and villains of their neighbours, with great fiscal and abandon of privilege efforts : I'm not sure that they would be ready to pay even more to make their population going away.
 

Riain

Banned
Two questions:

1. Are you suggesting that most Muslims in the Crusader states emigrated after these territories were conquered by the Crusaders?

2. Why didn't the Church and wealthy royalty and noblemen pay the fees for aspiring immigrants to the Outremer so that they could travel there by sea?

I imagine Muslims left after the first orgy of blood and death in 1099, but after things settled down found they didn't have to leave just because their new overlords were Frankish knights.

I think it would be cheaper to just use native peasants rather than import them.

@LSCatilina so would an open route across Anatolia increase Latin settlement?

I think it would, easier and vastly cheaper to live off the land and camp beside the road rather than pay cash up front for passage on a ship. The Italians sold the kids of the children's crusade into slavery, which would be a detterent.
 
I imagine Muslims left after the first orgy of blood and death in 1099
The brutality of Crusader conquests tend to be exagerated (which doesn't mean the first wave of conquest wasn't violent), mostly due to an acontextual reading of own Latin chronicles tough.
It's not really clear how many were killed, but with the exemple of Jerusalem, it's not that credible that a city with roughly 8,000 inhabitants ended up as witnessing the slaughter of ten times more.

The violent uprising of cities is less an orgy of blood than the usual outcome of long urban sieges, especially with a strong motivation to take the city : you could argue that a quicker siege of Antioch or Jerusalem (while not hugely likely) could have caused less damages altough I entierly agree that a good part of the population would have still be expelled (as it happened for surviving Muslims in Jerusalem) would it be only to reinforce Latin control.

It's one of the reasons that makes me think that rump Latin states (either underdevelloped, or shriking) would be better candidate to conversion than the IOTL situation in the XIIth.

@LSCatilina so would an open route across Anatolia increase Latin settlement?
No : even the road up to Constantinople provided little logistical support for large enough migrations, and even an "open road" across Anatolia (which was open beforehand in the XIth century, but plagued with Turkic harassment) especially in the semi-arid regions wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park.

Sea transportation simply tended to be cheaper, quicker and safer hence why virtually anyone from the XIIth century onward used it.
 
@LSCatilina How the Latins see Muslims is inconsequential by the time they begin to make dealings with them. I am not expecting the Crusaders to align with Muslim based upon common beliefs, but to pick and choose different groups of tribes and Muslims to align against other. Some of these groups, include the Druze, Alawi and other Ghulati Shi'i whom the Crsuaders noticed marked difference in at least political aims as that of the Muslim primary factions. All of which, have considerable power in al-Shams and could be staunch allies of the Crusaders and sometimes were. Hashashin would be one faction too, whom the Crusaders or Byzantines could gain some sort of agreement with, especially in their Syrian outposts. It seems unlikely, but much more fantastical events have occurred.

You are correct, deep states like bureaucracies tend to remain in place. However, as the Abbasid proved, they can be radically modified and changed through subversion if the Latins took the time to survey their lands. You would argue that they would not do this however. In which case, I have no argument.
 
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