PC/WI: Japanese Manichaeism

Considering how far Manichaeism reached IOTL, with adherents living in places as far apart as Roman Gaul and China, I was wondering how Manichaeism could possibly reach Japan and how it would then develop on the islands. A few specific questions:
  1. If Manichaeism reaches Japan, how influential could it become? Would it be able to take the place of Buddhism in Japan?
  2. How much could the religion syncretize with Shinto (like how Buddhism did IOTL)?
  3. Would Japan's interactions with the rest of East Asia be significantly impacted by adopting Manichaeism?
  4. Assuming there's a butterfly net over the rest of the world, how would a Manichean Japan interact with European Christians as opposed to IOTL?
 

Maoistic

Banned
1) Manichaeism has no chance of reaching Japan. Manichaeism was never a big religion. There are bigger chances for Zoroastrianism, but Manichaeism was never more than a small sect compared to Christian Gnosticism that was fated to disappear and never grow. I mean, if Islam didn't reach Japan despite the fact that Muslim sailors were docking regularly in Guangdong and Genghis Khan increased even further the Muslim connection with China, what makes you think that Manichaeism has any chance of reaching Japan?

2) Manichaeism probably would have made Shinto gods into angels or represent them as aspects of the one true God, similar to how Christianity did the same with the Greco-Roman gods (contrary to the still popular idea that no syncretism occurred between Christianity and Hellenism), with some combination of them being demons of Ahriman. But again, Manichaeism is not reaching Japan. It's too small and has little capacity to expand.

3) No. If Manichaeism becomes magically ingrained into Japan, it would at most set Japan apart culturally from East Asia, but the rest of its interactions would basically remain the same.

4) It would be the same, really. European Christians would still treat Japanese as heathens in need of conversion or as an inferior "race" that needs to be colonised or contained. Saint Augustine wrote invectives against Manichaeism, but I doubt that would influence relations between European Christians and Japanese Manichaeans. It's possible that the first Christians won't even notice that Japanese Manichaeism is meant to be the same religion as that attacked by Augustine until centuries into their interaction with Japanese, just like how they didn't realise that Buddha is Saint Josaphat and that Clement of Alexandria (and Jerome too I believe) mentioned him.
 

Kaze

Banned
Toghrul, the Khan of Keraites, had some family members that were Manichean leaning - this is one of the inspirations for the legend of Priester John. If Toghrul defeats Genghis instead of the other way around -> Toghrul goes onto conquests following the Genghis model, he adds Korea and the whole of the Mongol conquests, and China. Toghrul's heir (basically the analog to Kublai Khan) adds Japan in a successful Keraite (Mongol) invasion of Japan. There you go - Manichean Japan.
 
If a Nestorian cemetary exists in Japan, then it isn't totally out of the question for Manichaeism to reach Japan. But it would probably be like the Chinese variant of it which was pretty similar to Buddhism and rather different than the Manichaeism encountered by Europeans or Persians.
 

Maoistic

Banned
Toghrul, the Khan of Keraites, had some family members that were Manichean leaning - this is one of the inspirations for the legend of Priester John. If Toghrul defeats Genghis instead of the other way around -> Toghrul goes onto conquests following the Genghis model, he adds Korea and the whole of the Mongol conquests, and China. Toghrul's heir (basically the analog to Kublai Khan) adds Japan in a successful Keraite (Mongol) invasion of Japan. There you go - Manichean Japan.

And Kublai Khan's mother promoted Nestorianism. Yet Nestorianism is but a blip in the history of China. I don't think that because some noble Mongols promoted Manichaeism that therefore this means said Mongols would have transformed it into one of the main religions of East Asia. Heck, Genghis and Kublai increased the connection to Islam, yet Islam still remained on the margins of Chinese society.

If a Nestorian cemetary exists in Japan, then it isn't totally out of the question for Manichaeism to reach Japan. But it would probably be like the Chinese variant of it which was pretty similar to Buddhism and rather different than the Manichaeism encountered by Europeans or Persians.

That cemetery turned out to be a hoax.


Honestly, I don't get Western Sinology's obsession with both Manichaeism and Nestorianism in China. They were never anything more than marginal religions that both the general populace and the ruling elite ignored. They don't compare at all to Daoism and Buddhism, no matter how we see Sinologists saying ridiculous things like the Daoist goddess Wusheng Laomu being somehow based on Manichaeism when Manichaeism doesn't have such a goddess and is largely male in its theology. Anyone trying to say Wusheng Laomu is anything more than a Daoist goddess is engaging in yet more downplaying of indigenous Chinese developments.

Western Sinologists are thoroughly obsessed with crediting all developments inside China to outside sources. It's not as bad as the Western historiography of the Arabs where they're portrayed as nothing but copiers and thieves of Greece and India, but it's definitely up there, to the point we see ridiculous claims like the Terracotta Army being based on the Hellenic art of Gandhara, or even being made by Greek sculptors brought from the Indo-Greek kingdoms. The only thing that said Sinologists are more obsessed with is with conflating the China of the present with the China of the past, making everything Chinese bigger and badder than it actually was.
 
And Kublai Khan's mother promoted Nestorianism. Yet Nestorianism is but a blip in the history of China. I don't think that because some noble Mongols promoted Manichaeism that therefore this means said Mongols would have transformed it into one of the main religions of East Asia. Heck, Genghis and Kublai increased the connection to Islam, yet Islam still remained on the margins of Chinese society.



That cemetery turned out to be a hoax.


Honestly, I don't get Western Sinology's obsession with both Manichaeism and Nestorianism in China. They were never anything more than marginal religions that both the general populace and the ruling elite ignored. They don't compare at all to Daoism and Buddhism, no matter how we see Sinologists saying ridiculous things like the Daoist goddess Wusheng Laomu being somehow based on Manichaeism when Manichaeism doesn't have such a goddess and is largely male in its theology. Anyone trying to say Wusheng Laomu is anything more than a Daoist goddess is engaging in yet more downplaying of indigenous Chinese developments.

Western Sinologists are thoroughly obsessed with crediting all developments inside China to outside sources. It's not as bad as the Western historiography of the Arabs where they're portrayed as nothing but copiers and thieves of Greece and India, but it's definitely up there, to the point we see ridiculous claims like the Terracotta Army being based on the Hellenic art of Gandhara, or even being made by Greek sculptors brought from the Indo-Greek kingdoms. The only thing that said Sinologists are more obsessed with is with conflating the China of the present with the China of the past, making everything Chinese bigger and badder than it actually was.
I honestly just brought up the idea because I think Manichaeism is a really interesting religion and was wondering how it could develop in a society such as Japan, mainly looking at the development of Buddhism and its syncretism with Shinto.
 
1) Manichaeism has no chance of reaching Japan. Manichaeism was never a big religion. There are bigger chances for Zoroastrianism, but Manichaeism was never more than a small sect compared to Christian Gnosticism that was fated to disappear and never grow.
That is just not true.
Manichaeism never (with the exception of the Uyghur Khanate) became a state religion, but it was far far larger than Christian Gnosticism ever came close to.

It was truly an international religion, spreading from Gaul to China, being very popular amongst merchants and the steppes nomads. The fact that it survived so long without a state backing it speaks volumes to its ability to survive and spread, and it certainly had more of a chance than Zoroastrianism which was quite ethnocentric.

That being said, I otherwise agree. Manichaeism has little chance of becoming g a big thing in Japan.
 
Top