PC/WI HARRIER GR-3's flown to Stanley?

I was thinking of sending 6 aircraft with the bare minimum of support, but. . . but . . . with either a BBC or ITV news crew telling "the world and his wife" how the British Armed forces had been able to send a detachment of aircraft halfway across the world at a moments notice.

Wouldn't this give the junta in Argentina something to think about?

Regards filers.

Okay lets Muddle this through

The Maximum ferry distance of a Harrier Gr3 according to Wiki is

1,850 nmi, 3,425 km

Range from ascension Island to Falklands 3977 miles or 6,400 km

So we have a problem

The other problem we have is that from memory a fully laden Harrier cannot VTO it needs a rolling take off so if the intention was to use 'stepping stones' then the range is even shorter than the max ferry distance listed.

Then we need ground crew, equipment, spares, fuel and weapons and some where to put them

So even if we could get our Harriers to the Falklands they are not going to be able to fly ops.

C-130 C3s only had a range of about 2000 Miles so again we come up short

And then it hit me- short????

Shorts - Shorts Belfast!!!!

3 Short Belfast's are still operating in the early 80s and were 'hired' at great expense to support the South Atlantic Campaign.

They have a range of about 5,300 Miles so they can make the flight (Granted one way) to Port Stanley - although some pictures I have seen show what looks like an Air Refueling probe?? - so maybe an air bridge could be maintained from Ascension once enough Tankers are available?

So one way or another we can get some ground crew and equipment to the Islands.

Now for the Aircraft - I still think this is going to require an RFA ship to get within 500 odd miles* and then fly them off

*or whatever range an unladen harrier has after making a vertical takeoff

So with some personnel, and enough fuel and equipment to tie the flight over and allow it to conduct limited ops with enough weapons for some limited sorties we might just achieve the desired results.

But its going to take a week or 2 to setup - as I see it - it will take a week or more to get a Transport ship close enough - and I cannot see a reasonable 'penny dropping ' moment to kick off this action any earlier than the situation on South Georgia on or about the 22nd March - so it's tight!

Once the Air bridge is established with enough tankers and a supply of fuel on Ascension then more Belfast flights could be made - building up both troop numbers and supplies.

Is it possible to air to air refuel a Harrier GR3 in 1982 and if so can it with enough tanker support make the distance?

But again how much lead time would they have had to pull this off?
 
Shorts - Shorts Belfast!!!!

3 Short Belfast's are still operating in the early 80s and were 'hired' at great expense to support the South Atlantic Campaign.

They have a range of about 5,300 Miles so they can make the flight (Granted one way) to Port Stanley
Now we're talking. Here's a Short Belfast with an Apache helicopter as cargo. As long as the Harrier's wing can be removed, it should fit.

Apache.jpg


http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/483264-short-belfast-why-2.html

My thinking is one Shorts Belfast is flown in one way (there is avgas at the airport) to Stanley Airport loaded with Royal Engineers and RAF personnel to prepare the base for Harriers and metal plating to lengthen the runway. Next two Belfast arrives with first and second Harrier GR3s. Three Belfasts return to base, collect two more Harriers and more plating, plus ordnance, ammunition and AAMs for the Harriers.

By end of week two there are four to six Harriers, and a runway that can support RAF long range jet transports.
 
I don't think you can easily pull the wings off a Harrier and leave it flyable, not without a lot of re-assembly...
 
RAF Harrier mechanics routinely removed wings from Harriers when they replaced engines.
Harrier wings are single-piece from tip-to-tip.
You just need a crane, cradles, a half-dozen technicians, a half-dozen days, torque wrenches, special bolts, special washers, special grease, etc.
 
RAF Harrier mechanics routinely removed wings from Harriers when they replaced engines.
Harrier wings are single-piece from tip-to-tip.
You just need a crane, cradles, a half-dozen technicians, a half-dozen days, torque wrenches, special bolts, special washers, special grease, etc.

Yup, it was routinely done in the field at Forward Operating Locations as well. An engine change could be accomplished from start to finish (including removing and reattaching the wing) in less than 5 hours:

4Sqn_Harrier_field_02_gilmour_s.jpg
 
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Shorts - Shorts Belfast!!!!

3 Short Belfast's are still operating in the early 80s and were 'hired' at great expense to support the South Atlantic Campaign.

They have a range of about 5,300 Miles so they can make the flight (Granted one way) to Port Stanley

That's the ferry range. Fully loaded the range was only about 1000 miles.
 
My thinking is one Shorts Belfast is flown in one way (there is avgas at the airport) to Stanley Airport

You'd be needing AVTUR for a Belfast, and lots of it.


and a runway that can support RAF long range jet transports.

Seems a bit optimistic. Has anyone, anywhere ever operated VC-10 style aircraft from that kind of runway?

When the runway at Stanley was lengthened immediately postwar it took two weeks:

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2013/02/that-famous-runway-at-stanley-part-3-post-conflict/
 
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One way to increase tanker availability is have a POD where the USAF provides tanker support on the down low. The USAF regularly tanks allied and partner jets around the world everyday and right now is tanking Saudi jets conducting strikes in Yemen.

Before the age of the internet, this could have probably been done without much in the way of publicity. At least until long after events have concluded.
 
One way to increase tanker availability is have a POD where the USAF provides tanker support on the down low. The USAF regularly tanks allied and partner jets around the world everyday and right now is tanking Saudi jets conducting strikes in Yemen.

Before the age of the internet, this could have probably been done without much in the way of publicity. At least until long after events have concluded.

Complicating this is that the USAF primarily uses the flying boom refuelling system rather than the probe and drogue used by the RAF. The latter could and can be fitted to KC-135's and KC-10's, but I'm not sure how many.
 
If this is pre-war, how about the Harriers land and refuel on USN CVs and/or LPH/LHAs on their way down? Maggie could ask Reagan to have them in place.
 
If this is pre-war, how about the Harriers land and refuel on USN CVs and/or LPH/LHAs on their way down? Maggie could ask Reagan to have them in place.

Requires Reagan to overtly take sides, something they didn't do IRL until quite late in the game when it became clear that the British government wasn't in the mood for compromise or concessions.
 
VC-10 Range...

...Is 5850 miles according to Wikipedia. OK, Zeng He?

Even if we cut a thou or two off that (old aircraft), a one-way flight from Ascension, the Cape or Chile becomes feasible.

Or you use the old trick of taking off part-fuelled and refuel over Ascension to top off the tanks.

I did look into this at the time Cymraeg was writing it...
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Okay lets Muddle this through

The Maximum ferry distance of a Harrier Gr3 according to Wiki is

1,850 nmi, 3,425 km

Range from ascension Island to Falklands 3977 miles or 6,400 km

So we have a problem

The other problem we have is that from memory a fully laden Harrier cannot VTO it needs a rolling take off so if the intention was to use 'stepping stones' then the range is even shorter than the max ferry distance listed.

Then we need ground crew, equipment, spares, fuel and weapons and some where to put them

So even if we could get our Harriers to the Falklands they are not going to be able to fly ops.

C-130 C3s only had a range of about 2000 Miles so again we come up short

And then it hit me- short????

Shorts - Shorts Belfast!!!!

3 Short Belfast's are still operating in the early 80s and were 'hired' at great expense to support the South Atlantic Campaign.

They have a range of about 5,300 Miles so they can make the flight (Granted one way) to Port Stanley - although some pictures I have seen show what looks like an Air Refueling probe?? - so maybe an air bridge could be maintained from Ascension once enough Tankers are available?

So one way or another we can get some ground crew and equipment to the Islands.

Now for the Aircraft - I still think this is going to require an RFA ship to get within 500 odd miles* and then fly them off

*or whatever range an unladen harrier has after making a vertical takeoff

So with some personnel, and enough fuel and equipment to tie the flight over and allow it to conduct limited ops with enough weapons for some limited sorties we might just achieve the desired results.

But its going to take a week or 2 to setup - as I see it - it will take a week or more to get a Transport ship close enough - and I cannot see a reasonable 'penny dropping ' moment to kick off this action any earlier than the situation on South Georgia on or about the 22nd March - so it's tight!

Once the Air bridge is established with enough tankers and a supply of fuel on Ascension then more Belfast flights could be made - building up both troop numbers and supplies.

Is it possible to air to air refuel a Harrier GR3 in 1982 and if so can it with enough tanker support make the distance?

But again how much lead time would they have had to pull this off?

Ok, how about this?

In his book "Sea Harrier over the Falklands , A Maverick at War" Ian "Sharkey" Ward and his fellow pilots worked out that to get just 1 Vulcan down to Stanley, used in the region of 2,300,000 lbs of fuel (albeit scribbled down on the back of a cig packet).

That's 12 Victor KC 1 & 2's, "11 Heirs plus a spare"

How much fuel could a GR-3 carry in total, internal and external?

Would 12 Victors be able to get 6 GR-3's straight down to Stanley via Ascension?

No need to take dismantle the aircraft.

Regards filers.
 
Would 12 Victors be able to get 6 GR-3's straight down to Stanley via Ascension?
Can a Harrier fly for that long? What's it's rate of burn for engine lubricating oil and other consumables? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Siddeley_Orpheus

Oil system: Pressure spray and metered feed to gearbox and rear bearing. Oil from the rear bearing is lost overboard to the jet efflux.

Then there's the pilot. 6,400 kms is a long eight hours when your cruise speed is 880 kms. Did the GR3 have auto pilot?

http://www.gatwick-aviation-museum.co.uk/harrier/harrier.html
 
Prior to the Argentine invasion, probably the most practical solution would have been to send a squadron of GR3's down to the Falklands aboard Fearless and Intrepid. Their landing craft can be used to land all the support kit and construction equipment to prepare the airfield and the planes themselves can Fly off the helidecks, light load for the short flight to the shore.:D
 
Interesting article and great pics on the topic of Harriers at the Falklands here http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/04/harrier-forward-operating-base-falkland-islands/

Prior to the Argentine invasion, probably the most practical solution would have been to send a squadron of GR3's down to the Falklands aboard Fearless and Intrepid. Their landing craft can be used to land all the support kit and construction equipment to prepare the airfield and the planes themselves can Fly off the helidecks, light load for the short flight to the shore.:D
It would be interesting had Fearless and Intrepid, plus a single Type 42 destroyer, Type 21 frigate and a Churchill-class submarine arrived at Stanley in late March 1982.

Fearless and Intrepid would have each carried up to four Harriers (more if flight ops are not expected), provided one each of their rotary wing aircraft were moved to the escorts for the duration of the trip. More importantly are the 200-400 British troops on board each ship.
 
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