PC/WI: Germany goes all in with Radar equipped FW-200 Condors instead of U-Boats

Problems ,
one, the Germans need to get airborne radar working, OTL that's 1942, not so good in the early war

two, as soon as escort carriers appear, Condors die in great numbers during the day , for example HMS Audacity when escorting OG 76 is credited with 4 in one voyage.

three, to attack at night with any chance of hitting means a large slow steady aircraft at low altitude, once radar guided guns appear around 1940 losses will be high. Naval night fighters from 1943/4 turn it into suicide.

four, Condors can only really cover to 1000 miles out, that would mean heavier escorts on convoys as less need to cover the Eastern Atlantic. When you factor in land based air support , the area to operate in is not that large and rapidly disappears as time passes.

five Condors are expensive and fragile with bases that unlike sub pens cannot be hardened to be bomb proof
 

Deleted member 1487

Problems ,
one, the Germans need to get airborne radar working, OTL that's 1942, not so good in the early war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FuG_200_Hohentwiel
The FuG 200 "Hohentwiel" was a low-UHF band frequency maritime patrol radar system of the Luftwaffe in World War II. It was developed by C. Lorenz AG of Berlin starting in 1938 under the code name "Hohentwiel", an extinct volcano in the region of Baden-Württemberg in southern Germany. The device had originally been entered into a design contest held by the Luftwaffe for the new FuMG 40L (ground-based fire-control radar). When competitor Telefunken won that contract with its "Würzburg radar" in 1939, the device was shelved.

In 1941, Lorenz started to re-design it for another design contest by the Reichsluftfahrtministerium for an airborne naval search radar.
Really all the POD that was needed was to have the RLM ask for the device earlier, since the base technology was there already in 1939.

four, Condors can only really cover to 1000 miles out, that would mean heavier escorts on convoys as less need to cover the Eastern Atlantic. When you factor in land based air support , the area to operate in is not that large and rapidly disappears as time passes.
A bit more actually and quite useful range too, potentially even better if based further North or clandestinely in Spain:
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-200C...of-Fw-200-Condor-from-France-to-Atlantic.html
 
This seems like it would be much easier to counter than uboats
Without the threat of U-Boats, it's unlikely convoying gets started.
That's to the advantage of lone hunters like the Fw-200 would be in this TL

Problem remain on how the Condors are supposed to attack, there is no decent anti-shipping weapons in 1939
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FuG_200_Hohentwiel

Really all the POD that was needed was to have the RLM ask for the device earlier, since the base technology was there already in 1939.


A bit more actually and quite useful range too, potentially even better if based further North or clandestinely in Spain:
https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-200C...of-Fw-200-Condor-from-France-to-Atlantic.html

To be fair 2 of those were shot down by the greatest pilot ever to have lived.
 
as to the range, there was latter war scheme to tow all the large aircraft aloft, which presented issue of clearly the runways of all debris but promised double digit fuel savings.

also my earlier post, a fifth engine configuration allows cruising on three.
 

Deleted member 1487

And presumably some sort of plan as to how they're going to get past the RAF, which in 1939 is between them and the probable convoy routes.
In 1939 the North Sea was the focus of the naval conflict and there was a serious need for long range naval recon aircraft, no need to worry about the Atlantic until June 1940. In fact that is exactly where the first FW200 was used and there weren't many until after France fell anyway.
 
It seems like an air effort would be better doing.

1. Mining of british port areas. Perhaps with the release of the magnetic mine.
2. Recon for submarines.
3. Air cover for submarines over the bay of biscay once the allied air effort picks up.

But the atlantic campaign was going to be a fail anyway. Here you have planes and pilots usable for other roles, transport on the eastern front etc.
 
It seems like an air effort would be better doing.

1. Mining of british port areas. Perhaps with the release of the magnetic mine.
2. Recon for submarines.
3. Air cover for submarines over the bay of biscay once the allied air effort picks up.

But the atlantic campaign was going to be a fail anyway. Here you have planes and pilots usable for other roles, transport on the eastern front etc.

The only 2 ways for Germany to not lose WW2 is to effectively blockade the UK and to defeat Russia (and for its successor government to come to terms) quickly.

Both were with hindsight going to fail anyway!
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FuG_200_Hohentwiel

Really all the POD that was needed was to have the RLM ask for the device earlier, since the base technology was there already in 1939.

That's fine as to being vaguely aware that there's a surface object left, right, or straight ahead. That's what the original version could tell.
Trying to use such a fine and accurate device as a targeting radar would be a tad difficult, however.

On top of that, there's actually a multiple POD needed. The Luft ministry also has to think that working on something that's mostly of interest to the Kriegsmarine is worth the effort.

All that said, we're still back to the key issue. That might work, in some very limited way, for as long as convoys had no air cover (that's how FW 200s worked in OTL in daylight). Once this becomes the Germans' only, or main, anti-shipping approach, the British just build less destroyers and corvettes, and more MACs, small escort carriers, long-ranged ground-based aircraft. The FW 200s are extremely easy to find, as opposed to an U-Boot in ambush. Bye bye Condors.
 
Once they were the determined to be a threat CAM ships would be converted in even larger numbers and there would be an even more rapid drive to build/adapt ships into escort carriers. Once they were in widespread use the Condor threat wouldn't be one.
 
"The Short Strathclyde was an adaption of the Stirling heavy bomber as a very heavy fighter and ASW escort, changes made to the aircraft included :-

  • Updated Bristol Hercules engines optimised for lower level performance.

  • New Heavy mid upper and tail turrets, from a range of manufacturers initially, finalising on a copy of the twin .5" Martin turret made by Bolton Paul and a twin .5" tail mount made by Fraser Nash, both of these turrets we fitted to other makes of Bomber command aircraft later in the war.

  • The radar suite was quite advanced, the aircraft were fitted with 2 radars, a nose mounted AI set in a remodeled and streamlined nose removing the nose turret, usually older sets phased out from fighter command night fighter squadrons and a ASV set which was also used as a general search set to pick up Condor bombers and U-boats. the main issue is that both sets could not work at the same time due to the demand on the aircraft's electrical system, this was resolved in later versions.

  • Heavy frontal armament, initially fitted with 8 303" Browning's in blisters on the side of the forward fuselage, this was quickly increased to 12 guns with wing guns added with later versions having combinations of .5" and 20mm guns. Later versions of the Strathclyde having 6 20mm Hispano cannons mounted on the side of the fuselage and 6 .5" Vickers K guns in the wings, with the later fitting of rockets to combat surfaced u boats, there are accounts of the rockets being fired at condors to make them break off attack runs, with some claims of hits which have never been substantiated.

  • Bomb bay was altered with half of the bay being used for fuel tanks and given over to a small galley for the crew, though wisely these were situated at opposite ends of the reduced bomb bay. The large fuselage allowed some room for bunks for a couple of extra crew per flight, though this was somewhat limited by the need for extra room for the radar sets and the positions to use them.

In use the Strathclydes operated in pairs, with one on over watch and the other on interception duties and they would switch round after interceptions, tactics used were diving attacks initially, then unbelievably dogfighting using the Strathclydes high level of maneuverability for a heavy 4 engined aircraft and higher speed to inflict heavy losses on the Condor torpedo bombers and the later HE 177s that supplemented the failed attempts to interdict the British convoy system.

The success of the initial spartan conversions from Stirling bombers into Strathclydes quickly gathered pace with the Stirling disappearing from bomber command quickly and transferring almost en block to Coastal command and production switching at Shorts to Strathclydes for the rest of the war.

The Strathclyde proved to be a platform capable of constant updating and remained in service until replaced by the Nimrod in the late 60s."

Someone has been actually reading the PAM timeline and My Notes, The Strathclyde described above by Brazen is basically the maritime Stirling S29 from the PAM time line. In fact it is a real clone for the MkII S29 due to be rolled out in late 1940!!! who's been hacking my notes.
 
Weather!!! U Boats could operate in anything short of a Force 8 and if it got too rough they went down and sat it out. Flying an FW200 into the teeth of a gale and trying to find and attack a convoy in winter is not going to go well unless the Germans had lots of spare aircraft and crews.
 
Well, for one thing, there is essentially no threat at all to Allied shipping in the western North Atlantic, the South Atlantic, and the southern North Atlantic. All those areas were at times happy hunting grounds for U-boats.
 
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