PC/ WI: Gaelic Culture Dominated Britain

Now, let me preface, this is not an Ireland Rocks thread. Yes, Ireland does rock, but we don't need to talk about that.

From the 5th to the 9th century, Britain was assaulted by a number of different groups. Most notable of these were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, and later the Norse and Danish.

However, during this period, the Gaelic people of Ireland were also considered a constant threat. The were notorious pirates who eventually adopted the viking style of piracy and raiding, as well as notably fierce warriors. The modern Scottish are descended from Irish Gaelic migrants into Caledonia who later came to culturally and linguistically dominate the native Picts.

Is it possible for this to happen to the rest of Britain? Could all of Britain effectively become Scotland as it were?

This would mean the following:

A Gaelic language is dominant as the common vernacular, though not necessarily uniform

Continued Tribal ties

Balkanization politically because of the lack of centralization in Gaelic culture and politics
 

birdboy2000

Banned
OTL, parts of Scotland were never gaelicized, and in time Scots replaced Scottish Gaelic as the language of the court. I expect any Gaelic dynasty in England will have a similar fate.

...not that it wouldn't have fascinating knock-off effects if it did.
 
OTL, parts of Scotland were never gaelicized, and in time Scots replaced Scottish Gaelic as the language of the court. I expect any Gaelic dynasty in England will have a similar fate.

...not that it wouldn't have fascinating knock-off effects if it did.

I think if you go for an early enough POD, you can make it happen. Maybe the Britons unite somewhat and drive out the Saxons, but are too weak to stop the Gaels invading from the West? Couple that with a surviving Pictish cool Scotland and you have a pretty great scenario.

Actually, wasn't there a TL on here that had the Irish invading and settling in Wales?
 
I'm not sure if it would be possible for the entirety of Britain to fall under Gaelic domination. However, the collapse of Roman Britain was so messy, that it doesn't seem impossible that a Gaelic group could gain dominance over part of the land.
In OTL, the Gaels did raid and even settle along the western coast of Britain. If I'm remember my history well enough, most of these settlements appear to have been in OTL Wales or, at least, that's where most of the Ogham monuments they left behind are located. These settlements also seem to have been fairly short lived.
Maybe the best way to facilitate this would be if an Irish king, rather than raiding, actively attempted to overthrow a series of Briton chieftans to create an actual state, possibly in alliance with an Anglo-Saxon king on the island. It would be small, and its borders would likely be pretty flexible.
However, given time, and some immigration from Ireland, over a generation or two this region might come to be Gaelic dominated in language and culture. Perhaps Strathcylde would be the best candidate for Gealicization? In fact, the kingdom, called Alt Clut at the time, came under attack by Dal Riata several times, and any invader would be able to use the Isle of Mann as a launching point.
If luck is on the side of Gaelic Stracthcylde, they might be able to expand futher into Northumbria over the subsequent decades. It seems possible that, by the time of the Norse, all of Northumbria could be a Gaelic speaking land. This will, of course, have a huge impact upon the developement of England and Scotland.
Not sure if this is helpful, as its all off the cuff, but its seems somewhat reasonable. Part of the problem, of course, is that we have very little information about how the Anglo-Saxons, a minority population, were so capable in culturally subverting the native British population and, for that matter, how Dal Raida accomplished the same in Scotland.
 
Not sure if this is helpful, as its all off the cuff, but its seems somewhat reasonable. Part of the problem, of course, is that we have very little information about how the Anglo-Saxons, a minority population, were so capable in culturally subverting the native British population and, for that matter, how Dal Raida accomplished the same in Scotland.

Well, we do know they successfully accomplished it. If the Scots could assimilate the Picts, and the Saxons could assimilate the Britons, than I think an Irish polity in England could assimilliate whatever areas it happened to conquer (particularly since Irish and Celtic British were both Celtic languages).

Another good area for Gaelicization might be the River Severn-the Irish did raid and settle Wales, after all, and a Gaelic polity that could establish itself in the Severn valley would have a good base to expand further into England.

EDIT: Perhaps for maximum wankage, we could have both DanMcCollum's Gaelic Strathclyde and my Gaelic Severn Valley happen, which, if things continue to go right for the Gaels, could lead to a substantial part of Britain becoming dominated by Gaelic culture.
 
Maybe instead of Britonic enclaves on the west coast of Great Britain as in Wales, Cornwall, Cumbria, and Strathclyde, this Gaelic-assimilated Great Britain would have Kent and East Anglia (Icenia?) remain bastions of Britonic culture, with strong Saxon, Angle, and Scandinavian influences.
 
The Germans were far more numerous and they had climate change and tribal movements really pressuring them into moving to Britain.
Ireland...was largely same old, same old.

I guess a stronger Ireland might help? Have it be more connected to the Roman world. Perhaps turned into an official client state- largely nominal in much of the country of course but nonetheless it is somewhat united and via trade with Rome becomes a rather wealthy place.
Come the collapse of the Roman Empire and the Irish king is quick to jump on the undefended Britain. Hell, maybe the Irish are hired to defend Britain like the anglo-saxons IOTL.

Maybe instead of Britonic enclaves on the west coast of Great Britain as in Wales, Cornwall, Cumbria, and Strathclyde, this Gaelic-assimilated Great Britain would have Kent and East Anglia (Icenia?) remain bastions of Britonic culture, with strong Saxon, Angle, and Scandinavian influences.
It wasn't just being in the west that meant Cornwall, Cumbria and Wales survived. Its the very hilly terrain and poor land.
East Anglia...guess it could happen there to an extent with the Britons hiding in the swamps but in the long term they're going down far quicker than the Welsh.
 
Perhaps some chieftain unifies Ireland and the defeated kinglets and warriors head east to carve out kingdoms, reinforced by second sons without options in Ireland?
 
Perhaps some chieftain unifies Ireland and the defeated kinglets and warriors head east to carve out kingdoms, reinforced by second sons without options in Ireland?

It would be pretty difficult to get a united Ireland at this point. The political structure of the island was too fragmented. Although you did have a position of Ard Ri(High King), it was attached almost completely to the Ui'Neill clan, and had very little power outside of the ritual and symbolic.
Underneath that you had your regional Ri, such as the King of Connacht, or Munster. These had a bit more direct authority, but still could only manage to actually control their own kingdom if they could somehow manage to dominate the local Ri.
In an era that was seeing the breakdown of political regimes across Western Europe, having Ireland develope a strong kingship seems a bit out of place.
I really don't see a way for a united Ireland to form in the 6th or 7th centuries (really, any time prior to the arrival of the Vikings). I think the best way to accomplish some Gaelic principalities in Britain would begin with a group of raiding parties establishing themselves and then encouraging settlement. This looks to be what happened in Scotland (which was a bit easier, as you can see the shore of Scotland from Ulster on a clear day) but its not beyong the realm of possibility.
Maybe the best way to go from here would be to figure out why this didn't occur in OTL. Once we know the factors that stopped it from occuring, we figure a way to change them.
Tyr may well be on to a good point; Germany was in turmoil during this period and a lot of tribes were being forced to shift around which, given a growing population, created some real population issues. Now, Ireland's population wasn't terribly low during this point, but there still seems to have been around land for people.
So, lets try this: During the Roman period, the Romans had a few small trading posts in Ireland. Lets say that the Irish-Roman trade was a bit stronger. The economic power of the island increased, especially after convertign to christianity, which lead to more wealth. This creates a higher population in Ireland itself.
By the 500s, the Roman trade has largely ceased, and Ireland goes through an economic recession of sorts. With a higher population, which has grown accustomed to a higher standard of living. The normal raids become more frequent as they raid Britain searching for wealth and slaves, which leads to the creation of a few settlements which eventually blossom into a Gaelic kingdom in part of Britain. (basically, the Gaels go through a mini-Viking period). In this timeline, you might well see Gaelic raiders even reaching the continent, which would cause some interesting knocks offs as well.
 
It would be pretty difficult to get a united Ireland at this point. The political structure of the island was too fragmented. Although you did have a position of Ard Ri(High King), it was attached almost completely to the Ui'Neill clan, and had very little power outside of the ritual and symbolic.
Underneath that you had your regional Ri, such as the King of Connacht, or Munster. These had a bit more direct authority, but still could only manage to actually control their own kingdom if they could somehow manage to dominate the local Ri.
In an era that was seeing the breakdown of political regimes across Western Europe, having Ireland develope a strong kingship seems a bit out of place.
I really don't see a way for a united Ireland to form in the 6th or 7th centuries (really, any time prior to the arrival of the Vikings). I think the best way to accomplish some Gaelic principalities in Britain would begin with a group of raiding parties establishing themselves and then encouraging settlement. This looks to be what happened in Scotland (which was a bit easier, as you can see the shore of Scotland from Ulster on a clear day) but its not beyong the realm of possibility.
Maybe the best way to go from here would be to figure out why this didn't occur in OTL. Once we know the factors that stopped it from occuring, we figure a way to change them.
Tyr may well be on to a good point; Germany was in turmoil during this period and a lot of tribes were being forced to shift around which, given a growing population, created some real population issues. Now, Ireland's population wasn't terribly low during this point, but there still seems to have been around land for people.
So, lets try this: During the Roman period, the Romans had a few small trading posts in Ireland. Lets say that the Irish-Roman trade was a bit stronger. The economic power of the island increased, especially after convertign to christianity, which lead to more wealth. This creates a higher population in Ireland itself.
By the 500s, the Roman trade has largely ceased, and Ireland goes through an economic recession of sorts. With a higher population, which has grown accustomed to a higher standard of living. The normal raids become more frequent as they raid Britain searching for wealth and slaves, which leads to the creation of a few settlements which eventually blossom into a Gaelic kingdom in part of Britain. (basically, the Gaels go through a mini-Viking period). In this timeline, you might well see Gaelic raiders even reaching the continent, which would cause some interesting knocks offs as well.

Yes, thank you, I am aware of how Gaelic society operated. All it takes, though, is one skilled king. Brian Boru, half a millenia early, or an Irish Harald Tanglehair.
 
Now, let me preface, this is not an Ireland Rocks thread. Yes, Ireland does rock, but we don't need to talk about that.

From the 5th to the 9th century, Britain was assaulted by a number of different groups. Most notable of these were the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes, and later the Norse and Danish.

However, during this period, the Gaelic people of Ireland were also considered a constant threat. The were notorious pirates who eventually adopted the viking style of piracy and raiding, as well as notably fierce warriors. The modern Scottish are descended from Irish Gaelic migrants into Caledonia who later came to culturally and linguistically dominate the native Picts.

Is it possible for this to happen to the rest of Britain? Could all of Britain effectively become Scotland as it were?

This would mean the following:

A Gaelic language is dominant as the common vernacular, though not necessarily uniform

Continued Tribal ties

Balkanization politically because of the lack of centralization in Gaelic culture and politics

We can't forget that the English language itself as we know it undoubtedly had some Celtic roots.........{along with the Frisian, of course :) The Land Where Old English Survives}
 
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We can't forget that the English language itself as we know it undoubtedly had some Celtic roots.........{along with the Frisian, of course :) The Land Where Old English Survives}

Surprisingly little though, which is the odd thing. I was reading one book a while ago that pointed out that English has only a couple dozen loan words out of British, which is pretty strange when you consider it.
Thanks for the link about Frisian, though! I remember hearing about it, while watching a documentary about the English language in a linguistics class I took way back in the day as an undergrad. *sighs* I wish I had more skill at languages, because I think linguistics is fascinating (in much the same way I think physics is interesting, although I can barely understand any of it! :D)
 
from what i've read, it seems there was a famine in 6th century ireland. so with an already larger population, this famine could lead to a much more drastic gaelic migration eastward
 
from what i've read, it seems there was a famine in 6th century ireland. so with an already larger population, this famine could lead to a much more drastic gaelic migration eastward

That could definitely help matters a lot! Now, all we'd need is some enterprising cheiftan to conquer some land and set up a settlement in Britain and see where it goes! :)
 
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