PC/WI: Earlier Air Drop in Market Garden?

Fog usually burns off before 10:00 am.

That still advancing the battle a minimum of four hours.

Even if there was ground fog, church steeples would still poke through. Ground fog can confuse ground observers. While a pilot may not be able to see the end of his own runway (while on the ground) anyone flying overhead only sees a thin mist.

The definition of a ground fog is it hugs the ground. Often you can see blue morning sky above. If visibility horizontally is 5-10 meters then the aircraft and paras can see the ground.
 
Another thing to have done is the Airborne Corps HQ not going in with the first lift - it was pointless as it could not control anything other than bits of the Division it dropped with and XXX Corps takes over command once it reaches them anyway.

No, XXX Corps is going to be operating north of the Rhine, so there is a need for another Corps HQ to help cover the long eastern flank. 21st Army Group has only got 5 Corps HQ in total, and 2 of them are dealing with ports.
 
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Eisenhower has already made the broad front decision so even if All the objectives are achieved it’s a stop line until the fuel catches up, maybe a better stop line but unless the whole strategy is changed that’s it.

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Thats correct in any case. There was not the fuel for 'a full blooded thrust of 40 divisions', and no 40 divisions. A successful MG Op gets the Allies a nice tactical advantage come the spring offensives.
 
I vote for an earlier jump at dawn.
C-47s were perfectly capable of flying across the Channel at night. Night-flying under a full moon is almost as easy as flying on a clear day.

See earlier post for September moon dates - full moon on 2nd, so 16th gets you a new moon.
 
Agree there. Tho it leads to the question of why XXX Corps attacked in the afternoon ???

Because as soon as XXX Corps attacked in strength, German bridge demolition parties in the rear would have been put on standby. The idea was that bridges could be captured by surprise by the airborne.

Indeed. A lot of the planning seems to have lost sight of how the entire op centered on securing bridges immediately. Unfortunately the Pegasus team was unused. May be have been dissolved by this date.

Pegasus Bridge required months of practice in an early form of simulator, but still 1 out of 6 gliders landed on the wrong river. There isn't time for practice for Market Garden.

The initial plan was put together by 2nd Army, who planned battalion drops near individual bridges. The US airborne division commanders objected and recast the plan to involve more concentrated drops. These worked well in that the units were quickly organised after the drops, but resulted in blown bridges eg Son.
 
Thats correct in any case. There was not the fuel for 'a full blooded thrust of 40 divisions', and no 40 divisions. A successful MG Op gets the Allies a nice tactical advantage come the spring offensives.

Not really the corps sized lodgement is so bleeding obvious it’s just another bloodbath come spring, and the temptation to on to the isselmeer and liberate Amsterdam will be strong. Whatever way you cut it’s the last gasp of the pursuit from Normandy.
 
A great example of poor planning. How many gliders does a General. a skeleton staff & a dozen radio transmitters require. I've been on exercises where a entire MEF HQ Forward could have been fit into six gliders. Actually four CH-46 but you get the idea

I personally think that given that he was not going to be effectively 'leading the Corps' once it landed - Browning and his Corps HQ should have simply driven in behind XXX Corps with the intention of taking command and defending the German Border to the East once XXX corps had moved on past Arnhem to the North.

This should have freed up all the gliders used and allowed an additional Infantry Battalion or 2 or additional supporting arms to land on the first drop.
 
I personally think that given that he was not going to be effectively 'leading the Corps' once it landed - Browning and his Corps HQ should have simply driven in behind XXX Corps ......

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You silly!
You missed the point!
The primary objective was more medals for more senior officers!

OTL During the Second Gulf War, an American Airborne Division jumped into Northern Iraq. Kurds had chased the Iraqi Army out of that region months earlier. Jumping into Kurdish-controlled territory was low risk. It was almost an administrative move. They could easier have landed INSIDE the C-17 transports supplied by the USAF. Observers were amazed at the number of senior officers (colonels and generals) earning COMBAT jump wings. Even the padre earned combat jump wings!
 
"Full moon on the 2d Sept. That favors my argument for seizing the Scheldt ferry sites and Antwerp airfield with airborne in the first week of Sept.[/QUOTE]"
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A far more effective strategy. Especially before Germany reinforced Walchern, Beveland, Breskins, etc.

Light infantry could have silenced those heavy coastal defence guns and allowed mine-sweepers in a month earlier.
Yes, paratroopers would have suffered heavy casualties attacking German fortifications, but when you compare casualties with Market Garden ???
 
A jump at night doesn’t seem like a good idea unless XXX Corps attack had already begun. Otherwise the Germans will put 2 and 2 together realize Monty’s plan and blow the southern bridges. Perhaps a combination of night drops and direct glider assault on the bridges ala Pegasus Bridge might be a worthwhile idea.

On the other hand do the Allies have enough airlift capacity to make up for outright or mechanical loss after the first lift without seriously compromising the reinforcement plan?

Also a night drop negates allied daylight air supremacy I would expect.

When I studied Market-Garden for my BA in History dissertation, I read the memoirs of Major John Howard, who led the coup de main against Pegasus Bridge in Normandy.

He questions why a coup de main wasn't used against all of the bridges, especially the Arnhem road bridge, mourning the fact that he and his men could easily have held the bridge and surrounding area until relieved by advancing forces.

Now that's assuming XXX Corps could have made it there in time, but it's an intriguing suggestion especially as glider troops would have been more concentrated. Glider coup de mains against the 82nd and 101st targets might have saved a lot of time as well (if feasible of course).

I'll break out the Otway and see if anything like this was planned
 
It was a mistake that the skills of John Howard’s company was wasted after Normandy. On the night of June 6 D Company went back to being a regular infantry company. Now I understand that the British Army needed grunts in Normandy. When the 6th Airborne returned from Normandy I think there were enough survivors of D Company to pass on their knowledge to the 1st Airborne. Some of the officers and NCOs could have been used to build the cadre of a new glider assault company for the 1st Airborne Division.
 
@riggerrob

Silly? Probably and I've been called a lot worse ;)

I don't think it was about Medals - it was a bunch of blokes who had joined the Paras because they were really up for it and this was their chance before the war ended and secondly there was no real appreciation that the Germans had stopped running and gone firm

It was a mistake that the skills of John Howard’s company was wasted after Normandy. On the night of June 6 D Company went back to being a regular infantry company. Now I understand that the British Army needed grunts in Normandy. When the 6th Airborne returned from Normandy I think there were enough survivors of D Company to pass on their knowledge to the 1st Airborne. Some of the officers and NCOs could have been used to build the cadre of a new glider assault company for the 1st Airborne Division.

I still don't understand that with all of their experience and skill each Division if not each Brigade/Regiment could not produce a Coup de Main element capable of capturing a bridge or critical location.

After all they had started as special operation commando units designed to emulate the operations of the Fallschirmjager at the beginning of the war and if anything their skills and necessary equipment had vastly improved.
 

hipper

Banned
It was a mistake that the skills of John Howard’s company was wasted after Normandy. On the night of June 6 D Company went back to being a regular infantry company. Now I understand that the British Army needed grunts in Normandy. When the 6th Airborne returned from Normandy I think there were enough survivors of D Company to pass on their knowledge to the 1st Airborne. Some of the officers and NCOs could have been used to build the cadre of a new glider assault company for the 1st Airborne Division.

The Critical bridge was at Nimagen but that's a tricky bridge to take by direct assault
 
He questions why a coup de main wasn't used against all of the bridges, especially the Arnhem road bridge, mourning the fact that he and his men could easily have held the bridge and surrounding area until relieved by advancing forces.

See earlier posts about moon phases: 1944 full moons; June 6th, September 2nd, October 2nd

Market Garden was launched with a New Moon, so little illumination of the landing zones (or for finding them).
 
John Frost led the raid on Bruneval. He would have been the perfect person to organize and lead a coup de main force.
 
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