PC/WI: Charles V marries Claude of France?

GauchoBadger

GauchoBadger

Apparently, at around 1504 AD, it was planned for the Duchess of Brittany, Claude of France, eldest daughter of Louis XII of France and Anne of Brittany, to marry the future Holy Roman Emperor, Charles of Habsburg. As per this treaty, Charles and the House of Habsburg would acquire Naples, the Duchy of Milan, Genoa, the Duchy of Brittany, and the counties of Blois and Burgundy. Such a dowry proposal alarmed the French nobility and the king, however, and it was eventually made null by a council of the estates-general. Claude was eventually married to her cousin Francis I, then Duke of Valois.
So, is it even remotely possible for Charles to marry Claude? Would this require a smaller dowry in territory?
What would happen if the marriage did go through as proposed? Could a son of Charles and Claude in the future become King of France?
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

It might have been possible if Anne of Brittany had lived a little longer, long enough to outlive her husband Louis XII. She hated the idea of Claude marrying her cousin and would never have allowed it if she'd outlived Louis. So kill Louis off a little earlier and keep Anne of Brittany alive and the match has a chance - although a smaller dowry may also help - remember, Claude is bringing Brittany with her as her dowry, really, as her sister Renee is too young to really be seen as a credible alternative for her as heiress, even if Anne would rather will her state to her younger daughter. So I'd drop the idea of giving Charles Milan and Naples at the very least, if he's getting Brittany as a marriage gift!
 

alexmilman

GauchoBadger said:
Apparently, at around 1504 AD, it was planned for the Duchess of Brittany, Claude of France, eldest daughter of Louis XII of France and Anne of Brittany, to marry the future Holy Roman Emperor, Charles of Habsburg. As per this treaty, Charles and the House of Habsburg would acquire Naples, the Duchy of Milan, Genoa, the Duchy of Brittany, and the counties of Blois and Burgundy. Such a dowry proposal alarmed the French nobility and the king, however, and it was eventually made null by a council of the estates-general. Claude was eventually married to her cousin Francis I, then Duke of Valois.
So, is it even remotely possible for Charles to marry Claude? Would this require a smaller dowry in territory?
What would happen if the marriage did go through as proposed? Could a son of Charles and Claude in the future become King of France?
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As I understand, there were 3 distinctively different parts of the dowry:
1. Brittany - while formally being a vassal of France, the Duchy had its own government and succession line guaranteed by a marriage agreement between Louis nd Anne: if there was more than one child, the crown of France would go to the elder son but Brittany was going to be inherited by the next in line. With Claude being the only surviving child, she was a legitimate heir to the duchy and it could not be taken from her.
2. French territories - on that subject the Estates General had a say
3. Italian territories - these were conquests outside France, mostly based upon the family hereditary claims. French authorities had no say on the subject.

Now, let’s start with excluding #2 as obviously inacceptable (unless the rights of Charles and his children regarding these lands are explicitly defined as those of the vassals of France, etc.; even then it is questionable).

#3 would, with a benefit of a hindsight, be good by saving France decades of a costly war by the end of which they had been lost, anyway. Perhaps, establishing friendly relations with the Hapsburgs could be beneficial (for a while).

#2 is tricky. Formally, Claude has a right to the duchy and should be able to marry whoever she wishes as long as the King of France agrees. Louis simply could not deny her that dowry. Probably there could be formal provisions along the same lines as in the marriage contracts between Anne and her husbands to prevent situation when the duchy and the rest of Hapsburg lands are ruled by the same person (but what if there is a single child?). But even with these provisions situation is not very good for France because one way or another it creates a Hapsburg-ruled enclave. Situation could be resolved if Renee of France was already born but this happened only in 1510.

So basically the OTL scenario was the only option at that time.
 

alexmilman

FalconHonour said:
It might have been possible if Anne of Brittany had lived a little longer, long enough to outlive her husband Louis XII. She hated the idea of Claude marrying her cousin and would never have allowed it if she'd outlived Louis. So kill Louis off a little earlier and keep Anne of Brittany alive and the match has a chance - although a smaller dowry may also help - remember, Claude is bringing Brittany with her as her dowry, really, as her sister Renee is too young to really be seen as a credible alternative for her as heiress, even if Anne would rather will her state to her younger daughter. So I'd drop the idea of giving Charles Milan and Naples at the very least, if he's getting Brittany as a marriage gift!
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IIRC, by that time consent of a King of France was required for the marriage of heiress of Brittany. And after the death of Louis Francis is a king and he is not going to agree to the marriage to Charles. As was demonstrated by Anne’s own experience, kings of France had reliable ways to enforce the marriage issue to their satisfaction so Francis would marry Claude even over Anne’s protest.
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

Anne was forced to marry Louis, you're right, but I don't think the same would have applied to Claude, not while her mother lived. Brittany wasn't hers at that point, after all, and Anne of Brittany wouldn't have stood for any interference in Claude's marriage by anyone, I don't think. I've read about Anne of Brittany and she was an incredibly determined woman who wanted nothing more than to preserve Breton independence as best she could - hence why she wanted to will it to her younger daughter after Claude married Francis I. I could genuinely see Anne arranging for her daughter to be smuggled out of France to Charles and married to him in secret before Francis could stop the marriage, if Louis died before his daughter's match to Francis was unbreakable. It's not like heiresses haven't been abducted before. And sure, it would cause a French-Spanish war, but what didn't in those days?
 

alexmilman

FalconHonour said:
Anne was forced to marry Louis, you're right, but I don't think the same would have applied to Claude, not while her mother lived. Brittany wasn't hers at that point, after all, and Anne of Brittany wouldn't have stood for any interference in Claude's marriage by anyone, I don't think. I've read about Anne of Brittany and she was an incredibly determined woman who wanted nothing more than to preserve Breton independence as best she could - hence why she wanted to will it to her younger daughter after Claude married Francis I. I could genuinely see Anne arranging for her daughter to be smuggled out of France to Charles and married to him in secret before Francis could stop the marriage, if Louis died before his daughter's match to Francis was unbreakable. It's not like heiresses haven't been abducted before. And sure, it would cause a French-Spanish war, but what didn't in those days?
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Claude was a heir to the Duchy and succession rules and rights had been clearly defined so the only way for Anne to marry Claude without consent of a King of France was to somehow disavow her of her inheritance. The tricks which you proposed would result either in an official annulment of a marriage or in an immediate occupation of the Duchy by the French troops (happened during Anne’s rule) with the consequences going all the way to eliminating the duchy’s quasi independent status (being vassal of the French crown it was not truly independent). Taking into an account the strong French support among the local aristocracy, Spanish scenario would be not very productive just as was the case with Maximillian.
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

BlueFlowwer said:
The easiest scenario would be to make Renee of France a boy.
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Huh. Why didn't any of us think of that?

Of course it would be.

Who would *Louis (let's face it, that's what a male Renee is going to be called, isn't it?) marry then? Charles V's sisters will be hard without a dispensation for a double match, and I am struggling to think of any other suitable brides age wise. Isabella of Portugal, mayhaps??
 

alexmilman

Ivan Lupo said:
How long after this would you suppose Brittany eventually gets absorbed into the French crown?
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In OTL after Claude’s death the Estates of Brittany voted for it to be united with Kingdom of France even if by that time she had to sons by King Francis. In AH this could take a somewhat longer time
 
FalconHonour

FalconHonour

alexmilman said:
In that case Louis is Louis XIII (but not a Duke of Brittany) and Francis marries Claude and gets the duchy.
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No. Because if Male! Renee is a son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, they are both Dauphin and Duke of Brittany by right. Brittany will be merging with France, there's no doubt about that. Francis won't be King, and Claude won't be marrying him. He's not good enough for her if he's not the heir to France. My guess is Claude to Charles V - they're the right age for each other,- and Male!Renee will marry Mary Tudor the Younger.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Here are the matches
Eleanor of Austria : John III of Portugal
Charles V: Claude of France
Catherine of Austria or Elizabeth Tudor(An OTL Miscarriage of Catherine of Aragon): Louis XIII(OTL Renee of France)
 

isabella

kasumigenx said:
Here are the matches
Eleanor of Austria : John III of Portugal
Charles V: Claude of France
Catherine of Austria or Elizabeth Tudor(An OTL Miscarriage of Catherine of Aragon): Louis XIII(OTL Renee of France)
Click to expand...
I think Catherine is more likely...
Claude will most likely bring the French rights on Milan, Genoa and Naples as part of her dowry as all of them are constested between France and Austria/Spain (and Naples at least was already under Spanish control while the other two were strongly contested). Burgundy also will most likely be given back to Charles as was originally part of his grandmother Mary’s inheritance and Charles still wanted it back...
 

alexmilman

FalconHonour said:
No. Because if Male! Renee is a son of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, they are both Dauphin and Duke of Brittany by right. Brittany will be merging with France, there's no doubt about that. Francis won't be King, and Claude won't be marrying him. He's not good enough for her if he's not the heir to France. My guess is Claude to Charles V - they're the right age for each other,- and Male!Renee will marry Mary Tudor the Younger.
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Of course, Francis would not be a king if Louis and Anne have a male child. But by Anne’s marriage contract with Louis inheritance of the Duchy was separated from French Succession if there more than one child. In other words, if there is a male child, he is a Dauphin and Claude is a heiress to the Duchy and a merge is postponed. Renee was born years after the whole idea with Charles was abandoned and, anyway, it was too unpopular in France to materialize.

To avoid a possible confusion, there was no (AFAIK) similar provision in Claude’s marriage contract with Francis so their their 1st son was both Duke Francis iii of Brittany (after Claude’s death) and Dauphin of France. However, in 1532 (4 years prior to his death) the Estates of Brittany tied succession of Brittany to the French crown so his brother Henry was not considered an independent Duke.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

As far as I know Francis was engaged to a barren dwarf Princess aka Anna of Navarre before he married to Claude, Louise of Savoy might try to change the betrothal to Catherine of Navarre the younger instead or Louis XII would force the marriage to make the line of Angouleme extinct.
 

alexmilman

kasumigenx said:
As far as I know Francis was engaged to a barren dwarf Princess aka Anna of Navarre before he married to Claude, Louise of Savoy might try to change the betrothal to Catherine of Navarre the younger instead or Louis XII would force the marriage to make the line of Angouleme extinct.
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This would be along the traditional lines (Louis XI married future Louis XII to his own daughter by the same reason) but there was a problem: Louis XII did not have surviving male children so Francis was unavoidable evil.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

alexmilman said:
This would be along the traditional lines (Louis XI married future Louis XII to his own daughter by the same reason) but there was a problem: Louis XII did not have surviving male children so Francis was unavoidable evil.
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But having Louis XII having a son might change things..he might prefer the Angouleme line extinct or distanced and focus their shennanigans in Navarre.
 

alexmilman

kasumigenx said:
But having Louis XII having a son might change things..he might prefer the Angouleme line extinct or distanced and focus their shennanigans in Navarre.
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If Louis XII has a son before the issue of Claude’s marriage pops up then the whole situation is different but, keeping in mind that there is still (IIRC) an issue of separating succession in France and Brittany, then Anguleme may be preferable to the Hapsburgs.

Of course, influence of Anne could not be completely ignored and she was somewhat fixed on the issue of independence of Brittany but even in OTL he plan of Claude’s marriage failed. Perhaps it is telling that marriage arrangements between Claude and Francis (they married few months after Anne’s death with Claude already being Duchess of Brittany) did not include a clause regarding separation of the succession and their 1st son was both Dauphin and Duke of Brittany (after Claude’s death) and then estates of Brittany officially tied succession of the duchy to one of the French crown: idea of unification got serious traction in the duchy.
 
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kasumigenx

kasumigenx

alexmilman said:
If Louis XII has a son before the issue of Claude’s marriage pops up then the whole situation is different but, keeping in mind that there is still (IIRC) an issue of separating succession in France and Brittany, then Anguleme may be preferable to the Hapsburgs.

Of course, influence of Anne could not be completely ignored and she was somewhat fixed on the issue of independence of Brittany but even in OTL he plan of Claude’s marriage failed. Perhaps it is telling that marriage arrangements between Claude and Francis (they married few months after Anne’s death with Claude already being Duchess of Brittany) did not include a clause regarding separation of the succession and their 1st son was both Dauphin and Duke of Brittany (after Claude’s death) and then estates of Brittany officially tied succession of the duchy to one of the French crown: idea of unification got serious traction in the duchy.
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Why not give Anne of Brittany two sons instead.
 
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