PC/WI: Asian colonization of Africa?

Valdemar II

Banned
I think a another solution could be member of the Chinese diaspora settling down and coming to dominate some East African city states, maybe Chinese settlers setting themself up in Zanzibar, and end up dominating it. From there they may end up dominating the East African slave trade, which may give them incitement to set up control of more of the East African coastline to keep competitors out. They may keep swear loyalty to the Chinese Emperor.
 
I think a another solution could be member of the Chinese diaspora settling down and coming to dominate some East African city states, maybe Chinese settlers setting themself up in Zanzibar, and end up dominating it. From there they may end up dominating the East African slave trade, which may give them incitement to set up control of more of the East African coastline to keep competitors out. They may keep swear loyalty to the Chinese Emperor.

What motivation would the Chinese have to enter the slave trade?
 
The difference is that the British also had a market for slaves.

i was thinking that there was some good that they would want, like a spice or gold or artwork/ceramic some thing that they don't have not just slaves but yes there are problems because in otl it didn't happen much.
 
Well money, and the market would be the Arabic world, it was there most East African slaves ended up anyway

So, why buy a slave from a Chinese instead of from an Arab.

(I was aware of that slave trade, by the way, which has always to me discredited the "reparations" debatr in the United States. However, the difference is that Arabs/Muslims sold to Arabs/Muslims and Europeans sold to European colonists after the Atlantic trade started. In both instances, the consumer culture was the same as the procuring culture.)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
So, why buy a slave from a Chinese instead of from an Arab.

(I was aware of that slave trade, by the way, which has always to me discredited the "reparations" debatr in the United States. However, the difference is that Arabs/Muslims sold to Arabs/Muslims and Europeans sold to European colonists after the Atlantic trade started. In both instances, the consumer culture was the same as the procuring culture.)

Honestly the Arabs bought from everyone, one major supplier was Ethiopia, in fact because Islamic law forbid castration, eunuchs was "produced" by Ethiopian monks to the islamic market. If the Chinese diaspora dominate the East African coast, they will become a major supplier to the Middleeastern slavemarkets
 
More successful Islamic penetration into India could possibly lead to even further Indian involvement in the East African Trade and possibly port-cities, protectorates and even colonies on the Somali, Swahli, and Kenyan coasts, and Northern Madagascar. Basically apply the OTL European model of the very early phases of colonization in West Africa to the Indian States and East Africa. Note though that what most commentators refer to 'colonialism' explicitly refers to the period after the Scramble for Africa. I'm honestly not sure how could bring about a situation with an equivalent Asian Scramble for Africa.
Lol, I was playing a game of Europa Universalis 3 as the Mughal Empire, and I inherited the Swahili Throne...ended up control all of East Africa:D
 

scholar

Banned
If you want the Chinese to be immigrating and taking over regions in other continents with enough numbers to make themselves significant then you'll need to do much more than simply establish forts, or even a military presence on the continent. You need to make it a penal colony or you need to abandon the idea all together. Most Chinese frown, and even hate, merchants. They are considered the worst of the four professions because they attain profit while adding nothing to society. Rather they make money off of the fruits of other people's labors. You'll have no trouble establishing a minor presence there, but the vast majority of Chinese hate Merchants, even if they ended up becoming very powerful in Chinese society during the end of the Qing. Basically, Penal colony or have Confucianism and Chinese society radically redrawn. AKA have China go corrupt, weak, decentralized, and victimized by foreign powers or have an early Mao or an even earlier successful Koumingtang movement. There are ways to do it, but it will be by no means simple.
 
Koreans in Madagascar

Since every other Far East Asian major power has been chosen of the list (of which the Mongols were much more likely than any other as they made it to a few hundred kilometers away from Egypt in OTL), I will do a brief far fetched one of proto Koreans, possibly the proto Korean state of Gojoseon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gojoseon

We really do not know a lot of the state, except it disappeared hundred years before Chinese language filtered into the peninsula. (700 BC to about 300 BC). Just a guess, but trade by ships was a big likelihood (seagoing ships were common in the Shang period of before 1200 BC, and when that dynasty fell, foreign guest peoples showed up on Kyushu, Japan, probably refugees from that affair).

Around 300 BC, Gojoseon lost significant western territory after a war with the Yan state, but this indicates Gojoseon was already a large enough state that could wage war against Yan and survive the loss of 2000 li (800 kilometers) of territory.[10] Gojoseon is thought to have relocated its capital to the Pyongyang region around this time.[8]

Another choice might be one of three Chinese commanderies which did not last long, set up soon after the Gojoseon fell.

When Gojoseon was defeated by the Han dynasty of China in 108 BC, the northern region of the peninsula and Manchuria was occupied by the states of Buyeo, Goguryeo, Okjeo, Dongye, and other minor statelets. Goguryeo's traditional founding date is 37 BC, but it was mentioned in Chinese records as early as 75 BC, or possibly even 2nd century BC. China installed four commanderies in former Gojoseon territory, but three of them fell quickly to Korean resistance. Goguryeo gradually conquered and absorbed all its neighbors, and destroyed the last Chinese commandery in 313. (AD?)

A moderately sized group merchant and tradesmen offspring of Chinese emmigrants and local women find they fit in neither world, and relocated to Chedu Island, then to the not yet begun kingdom areas of Funan and Lâm Ấp (Vietnam/Thailand), which were possibly friendly and somewhat advanced. From there, to Madagascar, possibly beating the Indonesians, and almost certainly more advanced technologically. Preferrably the Chinese language was already introduced and manages to remain, to help ensure a growing civilization. The eastern rice growing areas would be a natural start, and only a single or few boats are necessary for this. Rice growing started about 800 BC in Korea.

(Madagascar is believed to have been started with a single small boatload of at most a couple dozen persons from Indonesia from 100 AD to 500 AD.)
 
Like others have suggested, colonial expansionism of the Indian subcontinent is very imaginable, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for.

If you consider Indonesia part of "East Asia", perhaps something from there would be workable. If there's a strong, unified empire along the lines of Majapahit or Srivijaya when the Europeans show up, perhaps it might modernize and go after its own global empire as far as the Swahili coast and Madagascar.
 
If you want the Chinese to be immigrating and taking over regions in other continents with enough numbers to make themselves significant then you'll need to do much more than simply establish forts, or even a military presence on the continent. You need to make it a penal colony or you need to abandon the idea all together. Most Chinese frown, and even hate, merchants. They are considered the worst of the four professions because they attain profit while adding nothing to society. Rather they make money off of the fruits of other people's labors. You'll have no trouble establishing a minor presence there, but the vast majority of Chinese hate Merchants, even if they ended up becoming very powerful in Chinese society during the end of the Qing. Basically, Penal colony or have Confucianism and Chinese society radically redrawn. AKA have China go corrupt, weak, decentralized, and victimized by foreign powers or have an early Mao or an even earlier successful Koumingtang movement. There are ways to do it, but it will be by no means simple.

It is very true that Chinese culture has traditionally viewed merchants with strong disdain. Which is probably one of the biggest ironies, given that historically the Chinese diaspora has become a 'model minority' in most societies they have entered by being members of what might (from the traditional Chinese point of view) be considered the 'parasitic' classes, ie merchants, shop-keepers, traders, etc.

I have heard it put once that (not in these exact words) 'the Chinese have historically been very economically successful everywhere except China. They are successful where ever they are a minority, but rarely when they are a majority'.

Can anyone explain why a group which culturally despises merchants so much can become so successful in commerce, even to the point of it being a stereotype (I have heard them called, the 'Jews of South East Asia')? How have mainland Chinese historically viewed their merchant Chinese diaspora?
 

scholar

Banned
Can anyone explain why a group which culturally despises merchants so much can become so successful in commerce, even to the point of it being a stereotype (I have heard them called, the 'Jews of South East Asia')? How have mainland Chinese historically viewed their merchant Chinese diaspora?
Most people who immigrated either had to because they couldn't feed themselves or were merchants.

In China simplistic lifestyle is praised so much so that rice and grain makes up 90% of the food they eat with a small amount of fish a protein keeping them actually alive. Peasants work on the land, the government takes a portion, the nobles take a portion, and they are left with just enough to live. Almost everything else is viewed as a luxury and looked down on. However this was no longer the case during about halfway through the Qing where when they tried to modernize the society kind of lost its innocence for lack of a better term. After experiences opiate and goods that make their lives more interesting they could never return to being a simple farming people dominated by a monarchy. Most people who left were merchants or people who had to, but a large number of them also left because there simply wasn't anything for them. 90% of the people were peasant farmers. 9% or so were artisans. The rest were merchants and nobility. When the need for goods beyond simple farming tools became introduced into a society they became consumers. Now they are among the most successful businessmen in the world.

Now there are more reasons, and the issue is more complex, but that's a decent overview.
 
Well, wasn't it shown recently that one of the communities on the Kenyan coast are genetically descended from Chinese survivors of a shipwreck from Zheng He's fleet? There could be a possible POD there...
Where is THIS?

Here: http://forums.yellowworld.org/archive/index.php?t-17706.html

Also of note is that NPC, a genetic cancer of the throat/nose involving Southern Chinese in particular, but rare for unrelated peoples, yet well represented on this coast. Probably not only did many people who shipwrecked have this gene, but also some likely became rulers (Ghenghis Khan's genes are all over Asia, as kings really hopped those bedchambers).

Is it true? I have no opinion at present. The NPC and genetic imprint will probably be the final word. Somalia is not a great place to test at present, however.
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The clan is called famao. It was very interesting. While the show didn't really concentrate on the people or if any Chinese culture was preserved in these families, a couple of them had rather Chinese or Asian features in the clips that were shown.

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And then on a still and sweltering afternoon I strolled through the coconut palms into the village of Siyu, where I met a fisherman in his 40's named Abdullah Mohammed Badui. I stopped and stared at the man in astonishment, for he had light skin and narrow eyes. Fortunately, he was as rude as I was, and we stared at each other in mutual surprise before venturing a word. Eventually I asked him about his background and appearance.

"I am in the Famao clan," he said. "There are 50 or 100 of us Famao left here. Legend has it that we are descended from Chinese and others.
 
Famao isn't really a Chinese name. Maybe a non Han Chinese person, but it may be the opposite.

Why would you expect a people who lost their original language (and were cut off completely with their ancestral homeland) to maintain an authentic term from that language? Words become corrupted over time. For example, the English-speaking, American descendants of colonial German-speaking immigrants with the surname "Müller" probably don't have an umlaut in their last name anymore.
 
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