PC/WI: Ancient discovery of America by Basques or Celts

[August II Mocny]

Since the Basque fishermen were quite close to discovering America in the Middle Ages, could either they or Celts of Gaul or Britain do that in Antiquity before ca 100 BC if there is something that makes them sail west, such as movement of fish populations?

They did have ships that were at least better than the Roman ones

 

[Gloss]

Since the Basque fishermen were quite close to discovering America in the Middle Ages, could either they or Celts of Gaul or Britain do that in Antiquity before ca 100 BC if there is something that makes them sail west, such as movement of fish populations?

They did have ships that were at least better than the Roman ones

I imagine there was a huge difference in seagoing capability between iron age ships and high medieval ones.

 

[August II Mocny]

I imagine there was a huge difference in seagoing capability between iron age ships and high medieval ones.

Yes but there could be something that sputd development of better ships in Antiquity

 

[BELFAST]

hard to see it happening that early
even Brendan the navigator in AD 484 – c. 577 had very small boats to work with many hundreds of years later.

if you want to get to America that early
Egypt might have better boats to get there

 

[Salvador79]

Since the Basque fishermen were quite close to discovering America in the Middle Ages

I think they weren't just close, they were well aware of lands / islands like Newfoundland, they just didn't care about them; they cared about the cod.
Which is by far not as surprising as it may sound. Actually, the longer I think about it, the more surprising and unprecedented does Columbus's approach sound: there was such a lot of distant islands with primitive indigenous populations known to medieval sailors, and none of those discoveries ever seemed worth a big fuss to anyone.

, could either they or Celts of Gaul or Britain do that in Antiquity before ca 100 BC if there is something that makes them sail west, such as movement of fish populations?

They did have ships that were at least better than the Roman ones

Did they really? The differences to late medieval ships were, I imagine, still immense.

Anyway: let's assume they can cross that ocean. It's not technically impossible perhaps, just a real stretch.
Thing is: Basque (and other continental) fishermen had, after the British isles, the Faeroes and Iceland to stop at. These islands were inhabited in their times, which both helped them on their path, and forced them to move on (because the fishing grounds there were already other people's). If your Celts or Basques get there on the late medieval Basque fishing routes, they'd probably much rather stop there and establish themselves there, which is still more or less within trading distance with Britain and maybe even Aquitania.

 

[August II Mocny]

What if someone invents an European equivalent of Polynesian double hulled canoe? Would it help with ocean voyages?

 

[Gloss]

they were well aware of lands / islands like Newfoundland, they just didn't care about them; they cared about the cod.

What's the evidence that they knew about those lands before 1492?

Which is by far not as surprising as it may sound. Actually, the longer I think about it, the more surprising and unprecedented does Columbus's approach sound: there was such a lot of distant islands with primitive indigenous populations known to medieval sailors, and none of those discoveries ever seemed worth a big fuss to anyone.

??? Outside of the Canaries no islands fit this, they were all uninhabited, are you saying tat medieval sailors went all the way to the Americas in a consistent fashion?

 

[Salvador79]

What's the evidence that they knew about those lands before 1492?

It's quite a while that I had checked these sources for my Hussite TL... I don't remember and can't find the sources which I had unearthed back then, but from what I recall, it's rather certain that Newfoundland and Labrador fishing grounds were regularly attended in the 15th century.

??? Outside of the Canaries no islands fit this, they were all uninhabited, are you saying tat medieval sailors went all the way to the Americas in a consistent fashion?

No, not to the Americas. But they went into the Arctic Sea and repeatedly encountered Uralic-speaking inhabitants on small islands along what we now call Russia's Northern coastline: Novgorodian, Norse, Swedish, and German/Dutch-speaking sailors are attested to have ventured around there, and the "Pomors" have even stayed.

To a fisher who lands at the coast of Newfoundland or Labrador, certainly these shores look a lot like Siberia's or the lands of the Sami. Cold, barren lands with fisher-gatherers, devoid of any interest unless you're after the fish or... which is in the sea, so the landmass was irrelevant except maybe as a waystation. Where would the excitement about " A NEW CONTINENT!" come from... when Siberia's Arctic was enormous and not entirely cartographed, either, and a plausible route towards China, too, if you wanted, and yet nobody gave a damn about it.

Just saying: Having stumbled upon America can't be falsified by the fact that the people who potentially did it didn't talk about it. They kept their fishing grounds secret. They saw no other relevance. If they found it, which, again, I'm sorry I can't find the texts which I had read on.

 

[Gloss]

It's quite a while that I had checked these sources for my Hussite TL... I don't remember and can't find the sources which I had unearthed back then, but from what I recall, it's rather certain that Newfoundland and Labrador fishing grounds were regularly attended in the 15th century.

I'm pretty sure that's just a popular myth.

No, not to the Americas. But they went into the Arctic Sea and repeatedly encountered Uralic-speaking inhabitants on small islands along what we now call Russia's Northern coastline: Novgorodian, Norse, Swedish, and German/Dutch-speaking sailors are attested to have ventured around there, and the "Pomors" have even stayed.

There are really no islands in the region that would give that impression, all of them are extremely small, thinly populated and very close to the coast anyway, hardly distant.

To a fisher who lands at the coast of Newfoundland or Labrador, certainly these shores look a lot like Siberia's or the lands of the Sami. Cold, barren lands with fisher-gatherers, devoid of any interest unless you're after the fish or... which is in the sea, so the landmass was irrelevant except maybe as a waystation. Where would the excitement about " A NEW CONTINENT!" come from... when Siberia's Arctic was enormous and not entirely cartographed, either, and a plausible route towards China, too, if you wanted, and yet nobody gave a damn about it.

Parts of Newfoundland are actually relatively good land for north Europeans,

Just saying: Having stumbled upon America can't be falsified by the fact that the people who potentially did it didn't talk about it. They kept their fishing grounds secret. They saw no other relevance. If they found it, which, again, I'm sorry I can't find the texts which I had read on.

I think you can't find the sources because most likely they are relied on hearsay, that's how myths arise.