PC: Why Does Charles VIII ALWAYS Die...

John Fredrick Parker

Donor
Since his next two OTL successors died in their 50’s, let’s him about that much - have Charles VIII die circa 1520, adding another couple of decades to his reign. To start with, his sister Anne, who served as his regent, will be alive this whole time, while Anne of Brittany, depending on how her pregnancies go TTL, might or might not live longer than OTL.

EDIT ADD: Holy crap, I just realized - if an offspring of Phillip the Fair and Joanna the Mad still unites the realms and titles held by Charles V OTL, and France, at the time of his ascension, is in considerable worse shape (financially, etc) than OTL... well, this could be one hell of a Hapsburg Wank.
 
Last edited:
Old1812

Old1812

Kellan Sullivan said:
To which instructions of Maxie's are you referring?
Click to expand...
From Wiki:
For penitential reasons, Maximilian gave very specific instructions for the treatment of his body after death. He wanted his hair to be cut off and his teeth knocked out, and the body was to be whipped and covered with lime and ash, wrapped in linen, and "publicly displayed to show the perishableness of all earthly glory".[41]
 

Kellan Sullivan

Old1812 said:
From Wiki:
For penitential reasons, Maximilian gave very specific instructions for the treatment of his body after death. He wanted his hair to be cut off and his teeth knocked out, and the body was to be whipped and covered with lime and ash, wrapped in linen, and "publicly displayed to show the perishableness of all earthly glory".[41]
Click to expand...

Can see why Friedrich III called his son "melodramatic". A trait inherited from Max's Portuguese mom perhaps?
 

John Fredrick Parker

Donor
So here’s a related question - suppose Charles VIII outlives the Duke of Orleans, and Louis never annuls his first marriage and has no legitimate male offspring; that means that, after any sons Charles may have, the next in line will be the son of Angoulême (who OTL was Francis I).

But now let’s throw a wrinkle in this - suppose Anne of Brittany doesn’t marry Charles VIII (or Louis of Orléans), but instead the King of England. Does Louis of Savoy still marry Charles, Count of Angoulême? If not, who does?
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Perhaps we could have Mary of Burgundy survive ITTL and have more children and copy her predecessor, Beatrice of Burgundy who had many children.

I think if Charles VIII does have children it would mean that Francis of Angouleme might not have children because if Navarre goes ITTL, Anne of Navarre who inherited her cousin, Jeanne's condition might be married off to Francis of Angouleme.
 

isabella

John Fredrick Parker said:
So here’s a related question - suppose Charles VIII outlives the Duke of Orleans, and Louis never annuls his first marriage and has no legitimate male offspring; that means that, after any sons Charles may have, the next in line will be the son of Angoulême (who OTL was Francis I).

But now let’s throw a wrinkle in this - suppose Anne of Brittany doesn’t marry Charles VIII (or Louis of Orléans), but instead the King of England. Does Louis of Savoy still marry Charles, Count of Angoulême? If not, who does?
Click to expand...
I can not see any reason for changing the wedding of Louise of Savoy as Orleans was already married to Jeanne of France (and can remarry to Charlotte of Naples, Charlotte d’Albret or a widowed Louise) and Charles VIII not marrying Anne of Brittany mean who he had married Elizabeth of York or will marry Margaret of Austria-Burgundy (or who he has dumped EoY for marrying his cousin Catherine, Queen of Navarre instead of Margaret).
If Mary, Duchess of Burgundy lived her daughter would never be available with lands as dowry for Charles so he will marry Elizabeth or Catherine
 

John Fredrick Parker

Donor
kasumigenx said:
I think if Charles VIII does have children it would mean that Francis of Angouleme might not have children because if Navarre goes ITTL, Anne of Navarre who inherited her cousin, Jeanne's condition might be married off to Francis of Angouleme.
Click to expand...
isabella said:
I can not see any reason for changing the wedding of Louise of Savoy as Orleans was already married to Jeanne of France (and can remarry to Charlotte of Naples, Charlotte d’Albret or a widowed Louise)...
Click to expand...
Okay, so Francis of Angoulême has the same parents as OTL, and since there's still a possibility the main Valois line and Orleans line both die out - which is still a possibility mind you, even with Charles VIII living longer - he may very well still become King... only now he's succeeding a longer reigned Charles VIII instead of following up a reforming Louis XII, which, as discussed earlier, is going to be a tougher job.
 

isabella

kasumigenx said:
I think if Charles VIII does have children it would mean that Francis of Angouleme might not have children because if Navarre goes ITTL, Anne of Navarre who inherited her cousin, Jeanne's condition might be married off to Francis of Angouleme.
Click to expand...
No, you need someone like the Spider aka Louis XI or Louis XII to plan a similar wedding... Charles VIII is not the kind of man to do it...
At the same time if Orléans never become King then young Suzanne will never become her father’s heiress so I guess she will marry her OTL first fiancé without any fuss on either side. They will likely stay childless (he died young and unmarried, she in the end married his younger brother and they were childless) but is possible who his younger brother, married to a different wife will have children, preventing the rise of the younger line who in OTL ruled in France, Spain, Parma, Naples and Sicily
 

Jan Olbracht

Louis XII was a bit better at making allies than Charles, who preffered 'France vs rest of world' style solution. That should make Italian Wars post 1498 quite different-Louis XII was fresh on the throne and more trusted than longer living Charles would be. Also there is no Borgia-French close cooperation, caused by the fact, that Louis XII desperately needed annulment of his marriage to Jeanne. Louis' plans of eastern alliances with Poland and Hungary also are gone (thus Anne de Foix is never send to Buda as side effect), Charles was never interested in that region.
 

funnyhat

Kellan Sullivan said:
Love the way how the article says that Marie of Burgundy "killed herself" by falling of a horse, like she DELIBERATELY decided to commit suicide
Click to expand...

"Se tuer" is ambiguous ; it can mean that in doing something, you got yourself killed (not necessarily intentionally).

"Se suicider" has no ambiguity, you deliberately killed yourself.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top