pc: usa destroyed in the war of 1812

New England was almost ready to split before the War and I don't think it is pushing it much to envisage a scenario where everything north of New York MAY go British (or at least Canadian).

New England was entertaining the idea of seceding from the US, but that in no way suggests it would promptly, or ever, join up with Britain or Canada, merely that it would secede from the US. If it did so, and Britain was able to extract terms from the US, none of those terms would include annexing the newly independent "New England" but rather forcing the US to rescind their claims to those lands and accept a British Guarantee of their independence.

New England will be heavily influenced by Britain, of that I have no doubt, but it isn't going to be annexed by Britain any time soon. And after all, why would Britain want to annex them? Whatever paltry sum Britain would gain in taxes or manpower is vastly outweighed by Trade.

But even this isn't going to make the US fall apart. If anything, this will probably strengthen the bond between the remaining states, because now they have proof positive of the idea that if they don't stand together, they'll just become pawns of Britain once again.

What it will do is nip the Slavery Debate in the bud, since now there will be an overwhelming majority of Slave States...
 

Sior

Banned
If it isn't obvious, then a few links may be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Thames

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plattsburgh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore


I'll grant that I'm cherry picking a bit here, but the point is that the United States was never in any danger of "falling" to British forces. To think otherwise is to completely ignore the size of the US and that of British troops in North America. Hint: four-digit numbers of soldiers cannot occupy a country of millions of people who do not want to be occupied, and America isn't Africa. It simply doesn't add up.

The British/Canadian forces were outnumbered by American in every engagement it was only where the British were at the end of their supply lines or cut off where the Americans had limited success!
 
Interesting idea. I dunno about "Destroyed", but certainly, the U.S. could have come off quite a bit worse than OTL.

New England was entertaining the idea of seceding from the US, but that in no way suggests it would promptly, or ever, join up with Britain or Canada, merely that it would secede from the US. If it did so, and Britain was able to extract terms from the US, none of those terms would include annexing the newly independent "New England" but rather forcing the US to rescind their claims to those lands and accept a British Guarantee of their independence.

New England will be heavily influenced by Britain, of that I have no doubt, but it isn't going to be annexed by Britain any time soon. And after all, why would Britain want to annex them? Whatever paltry sum Britain would gain in taxes or manpower is vastly outweighed by Trade.

But even this isn't going to make the US fall apart. If anything, this will probably strengthen the bond between the remaining states, because now they have proof positive of the idea that if they don't stand together, they'll just become pawns of Britain once again.

What it will do is nip the Slavery Debate in the bud, since now there will be an overwhelming majority of Slave States...

Well, maybe not, though: there are definitely going to be those Yankees who feel that leaving the U.S. was the wrong choice; most of them who do, will definitely leave. And many of them will likely be headed westbound; they would likely end up in Ohio, as well as Indiana and Illinois(or at least, the northern and central 3rds of the latter, and the northern half of the former; the southern areas of both, maybe not so much.) as was the case IOTL, only in rather substantially larger numbers. And considering that slavery becoming legal failed in both Indiana and Illinois IOTL, this scenario would only reinforce that.

If anything at all, slavery's end might be postponed for a little while, maybe another 20-30 years at most.....but after that, it'd be a major challenge. And even then, there might be a Civil War, and a nastier one at that. :(
 
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I do hate it when people declare something impossible

All that you need to accomplish what the person who posted this is;

A POD that makes the New England Secession movement stronger

That accomplishes the splitting

Then you have a military general by means of a coup take over

"To Save the Republic!" but of course it is destroyed

The Devil is in the Details

But it is not impossible
 
I do hate it when people declare something impossible

All that you need to accomplish what the person who posted this is;

A POD that makes the New England Secession movement stronger

That accomplishes the splitting

Then you have a military general by means of a coup take over

"To Save the Republic!" but of course it is destroyed

The Devil is in the Details

But it is not impossible

I'm going to respond with my argument about "impossible" from another thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=8136501&postcount=38

Anyone with a reasonably active imagination can come up with something. The question is coming up with something that doesn't require such a dramatic change that it would be easier to bring in the bats.
 
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