PC. Type 42's & 22's in Australian/Canadian/NZ service?

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
With a POD no earlier than 1980, what would it take for Australia, Canada & New Zealand to have Type 42's (Batch 3's with Type 1022 Radar & SeaDart/SeaWolf VLS) and Type 22's (Batch 3's) as their standard Destroyer and Frigate classes?

Regards filers.
 
A miracle!

By 1980 the RAN had the Standard SAM equipped DDG and FFG already in service and is not about to bring in a second SAM/weapons system/supply chain to complicate matters. The Type 22 is a powerful ASW destroyer, possibly suited to the RCN if the timing is right but way too much for the RNZN. However the RCN had the Iroquois class enter service from 1972 so the timing isn't right.
 
I think the RNZN considered the T21 but not for long, cost too much to run and it was a bad time budget wise.

You'd need a wider POD
 
With a POD no earlier than 1980, what would it take for Australia, Canada & New Zealand to have Type 42's (Batch 3's with Type 1022 Radar & SeaDart/SeaWolf VLS) and Type 22's (Batch 3's) as their standard Destroyer and Frigate classes?

Regards filers.

I'd say it is very unlikely that Canada would have either purchased the Type 22 or Type 42 from the UK or even acquired a license to build them.

Historically the Canadians have largely designed and built their own warships since WW2. Perhaps if an urgent requirement emerged for AAW destroyers in the 1980's the Type 42 might have been in the running but I can't see the Canadians having any interest in the Type 22 at all.
 
With a POD no earlier than 1980, what would it take for Australia, Canada & New Zealand to have Type 42's (Batch 3's with Type 1022 Radar & SeaDart/SeaWolf VLS) and Type 22's (Batch 3's) as their standard Destroyer and Frigate classes?

Regards filers.

For the RNZN policy would need to find a reason to role shift to destroyers, and a shipload of cash to pay for them. Those ships and systems were way out of the NZ defense budget at the time.
 
The RAN did have the Light Destroyer project which used the same Olympus-Tyne COGOG plant as Types 21, 22 and 42. However, it had American sensors and weapons, e.g. the American Standard MR in place of Sea Dart and an American 5" gun in place of the British 4.5".

However, it was cancelled and they bought the Perry class from the Americans.

The RAN also had a light frigate project that was similar to the British Type 21. Like the DDL it had a similar hull and the same machinery as the British frigate, but American sensors and weapons. It was cancelled in the 1970s too.

If the POD can be moved forward from 1980 to 1960 so that somehow the RAN buys British instead of the American Adams then the RAN might buy 4 Type 22 or 42 in place of the 4 Perrys they purchased from the USA and then build more in their own shipyards in place of the Perrys and ANZAC frigates built IOTL.

However, to do that it will be necessary to make a major change in the Royal Navy and British shipbuilding industries. E.g. make the Counties cheaper and preferably with a better missile than Seaslug.
 
For the RNZN policy would need to find a reason to role shift to destroyers, and a shipload of cash to pay for them. Those ships and systems were way out of the NZ defense budget at the time.

Well, the traditional route is to engineer some sort of Russian scare.
 
Countries that are able to generally build their warships domestically because doing so employees local workers and companies as well as the domestic defense sector. When you purchase foreign equipment all your helping is the foreign companies and employees producing it. Canada and Australia have the docks and technical capabilities to produce their own frigates and destroyers so why would the want to buy from the UK?

The equivalent question is why didn't the UK just purchase an aircraft carrier from the US rather than building one themselves?
 
The RAN did have the Light Destroyer project which used the same Olympus-Tyne COGOG plant as Types 21, 22 and 42. However, it had American sensors and weapons, e.g. the American Standard MR in place of Sea Dart and an American 5" gun in place of the British 4.5".

However, it was cancelled and they bought the Perry class from the Americans.

The RAN also had a light frigate project that was similar to the British Type 21. Like the DDL it had a similar hull and the same machinery as the British frigate, but American sensors and weapons. It was cancelled in the 1970s too.

If the POD can be moved forward from 1980 to 1960 so that somehow the RAN buys British instead of the American Adams then the RAN might buy 4 Type 22 or 42 in place of the 4 Perrys they purchased from the USA and then build more in their own shipyards in place of the Perrys and ANZAC frigates built IOTL.

However, to do that it will be necessary to make a major change in the Royal Navy and British shipbuilding industries. E.g. make the Counties cheaper and preferably with a better missile than Seaslug.

I believe that the RAN looked at the Countys when it was looking at the C.F.A. DDGs, I also think they looked at Terrier ships as well maybe Coontz, Leahy or Belknap class. The County were maybe 50% too much ship for the RAN, much of their design was about data sharing with the Type 984 radar system in the Victorious, Eagle and Hermes and the RAN didn't have anything like that in service or in the wings.

A possible PoD is around Suez where Britain is successful and decides to remain a world power. In such a scenario arrangements could be set up whereby close allies are empowered to act in concert with Britain with their own defence industries and the like. This could change the equation with regards to the use of British technology by the Commonwealth.
 
Countries that are able to generally build their warships domestically because doing so employees local workers and companies as well as the domestic defense sector. When you purchase foreign equipment all your helping is the foreign companies and employees producing it. Canada and Australia have the docks and technical capabilities to produce their own frigates and destroyers so why would the want to buy from the UK?

The equivalent question is why didn't the UK just purchase an aircraft carrier from the US rather than building one themselves?

That takes me back. The first timeline I ever did was an improved Royal Navy where CVA01 was followed up by 2 Nimitz class. IIRC they were built in Britain, but buying them from the USA with an offset package would probably have been cheaper for the USN and RN. That was about 30 years ago and decades before I knew about the ASB.

To be serious...

The Australians did buy 4 American built patrol frigates after they cancelled the DDL project. So the way in for the British yards would be to offer 4 Type 22 or 4 Type 42 in place of the Perrys. Apart from the 3 Adams class destroyers the RAN was still predominantly equipped with British built ships or British designed ships. Things were changing by the early 1980s but that wasn't what stopped the purchase of HMS Invincible, which was cancelled for other reasons.

I think the problems are:

1) Not enough Type 22 or Type 42 were being built for the RN for some to be diverted from the RN production line for export. E.g. only 6 Type 42 had been ordered up to 1975 and only 6 Type 22 were ordered between 1974 and 1979.

2) The Type 42s took an excessive amount of time to build due to the inefficiency of the shipyards and the late deliveries of components. If the first 10 had been built in the specified 3.5 years each instead of 5-7 years.

If the British economy had been performing well enough to allow at least double the production and/or building times had been reduced to a reasonable length - then the it might have been easier to sell 4 ships to the RAN in place of the Perrys and then order 4 replacement hulls for the RN. Then the Australians would build more ships of the same design in their own shipyards in place of the 2 Perrys built in Australian yards and the ANZAC class.
 
I believe that the RAN did look at T42s as well as Perrys and chose the Perrys, probably for a number of reasons such as price, supply chain, interoperability in the Pacific environment bla, bla, bla.

Its for this reason that for the RNs stuff to sell well the British need to be involved around the world as coalition partners so their allies can hook in with their supply chain. This is the huge advantage of the US.
 
I believe that the RAN looked at the Countys when it was looking at the C.F.A. DDGs, I also think they looked at Terrier ships as well maybe Coontz, Leahy or Belknap class. The County were maybe 50% too much ship for the RAN, much of their design was about data sharing with the Type 984 radar system in the Victorious, Eagle and Hermes and the RAN didn't have anything like that in service or in the wings.

A possible PoD is around Suez where Britain is successful and decides to remain a world power. In such a scenario arrangements could be set up whereby close allies are empowered to act in concert with Britain with their own defence industries and the like. This could change the equation with regards to the use of British technology by the Commonwealth.

IOTL the RN did want to buy Tatar or Standard MR, but I think it was stopped by the Treasury which said it didn't have to Dollars to pay for it. Sea Dart was developed instead.

My alternative Royal Navies either have a British equivalent to the Terrier-Tatar-Standard family developed in place of Seaslug and Sea Dart. Or the British Government gets a licence to built the 3-T and Standard families.

Therefore the County class gets Terrier and money permitting it is replaced by Standard ER in the 1970s. The Type 42 and 82 have Standard MR and get the NTU in the 1980s.

The production licence includes exclusive export rights in the Commonwealth less Canada. It's the same idea as Westland's licences on Sikorsky's helicopters.

Therefore the Australians build 3 additional River class armed with British built Tatar systems instead of the Adams. They might buy another pair instead of the 5th and 6th Rivers built IOTL.

Then it naturally follows that the Australians buy at least 6 Type 42 in place of the Perry class because a Type 42 armed with a British built Standard MR is effectively the abortive DDL project of our timeline.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
A miracle!

By 1980 the RAN had the Standard SAM equipped DDG and FFG already in service and is not about to bring in a second SAM/weapons system/supply chain to complicate matters. The Type 22 is a powerful ASW destroyer, possibly suited to the RCN if the timing is right but way too much for the RNZN. However the RCN had the Iroquois class enter service from 1972 so the timing isn't right.

Ok everyone, start the POD from 1960.

How will this alter the timeline?

Regards filers
 
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