PC: The Kaaba Held for Ransom?

If a Christian or other non-Islamic power captured Mecca and the Kaaba with it, is it conceivable that they could have held it (and the contents thereof) as hostage, its safety dependent on a cash ransom or other concessions, or would any Muslim potentates approached with such an offer shrug it off? Could the invaders potentially extort the Islamic world as a whole, or just the one ruler who the Kaaba was taken from? Would any Muslim be willing to pay to receive it from them?
 
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ben0628

Banned
It's been done before in otl. It was broken into pieces and then rasomed back by a certain sect of Muslims (starts with a k, can't think of the name).

There was also a long discussion on a thread I made several months back when the Christin crusaders had a small opportunity to steal it, but we were unable to come to a consensus as to what would be done to it in that situation
 
It's been done before in otl. It was broken into pieces and then rasomed back by a certain sect of Muslims (starts with a k, can't think of the name).

There was also a long discussion on a thread I made several months back when the Christin crusaders had a small opportunity to steal it, but we were unable to come to a consensus as to what would be done to it in that situation

Not a k, Qarmatians. They also were extremely divergent from Islam and regarded themselves as not Muslim. It would be akin to calling Manichaeans a sect of Christianity.
 
Yes, and the Qarmatians ravaged the entire city of Makkah and Madinah, desolating the region. They then sold the Kaaba which had been dismantled, to the Abbasids who paid a vast fortune for its return. The Abbasids also paid tribute to the menacing Qarmatians until the Abbasids started war with them once again.

So, otl meets your PC.
Yes, it does indeed.
 
The Portuguese in the 1500's under the leadership of Afonso de Albuquerque thought of attacking Meccah and stealing its contents, including the body of Muhammad (i think it was in Meccah, I'm using Portuguese sources) and presumably the Kaaba, to hold for ransom in exchange for Jerusalem.
 
Mormonism would be a more apt comparison to Christianity. The Qarmatians were derived from Islam, in part.

Mormons consider themselves Christians, no? The Qarmatians in later stages adopted a radical version of millenialism, wherein, they claimed the religion of Islam was over and a new millennia had begun under a new religion.

The view that groups who diverged so throughly from Islam (very basics), are still Muslim is quite a disservice to historical analysis. It only fits in modern discussions with non historians, it is of no relevance.

Also do have context on whom you speak. The Qarmatians were not peaceful settlers who were misunderstood. They were a powerful political entity who at one point, were that the most feared military presence in the middle eastern world and perhaps the greater western world. Invasions and war was their creed.
 
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Mormons consider themselves Christians, no? The Qarmatians in later stages adopted a radical version of millenialism, wherein, they claimed the religion of Islam was over and a new millennia had begun under a new religion.

The view that groups who diverged so throughly from Islam (very basics), are still Muslim is quite a disservice to historical analysis. It only fits in modern discussions with non historians, it is of no relevance.

Also do have context on whom you speak. The Qarmatians were not peaceful settlers who were misunderstood. They were a powerful political entity who at one point, were that the most feared military presence in the middle eastern world and perhaps the greater western world. Invasions and war was their creed.

So you claim that the Qarmatians were something like the Druze. What's your source that they didn't consider themselves Muslims, rather than adding various mystical creeds to Shia Ismaili Islam?
 

Md139115

Banned
Honestly, if Christians took it any time prior to 1600, I can see them deciding to deep-six it all somewhere in the Red Sea or Indian Ocean in an attempt to cause a collapse of the Islamic faith.

I am kind of curious as to what the reaction to that would look like. Would it be never-ending Jihad until all Christians or Muslims are death, would it actually mortally wound Islam, or would Muslims after a bit of mourning just start praying in the direction of the Red Sea/Indian Ocean?
 
As has been said already: The Qarmatians were a thing. The Abbasids literally paid a ransom to get the Black Stone back. This has already happened and it didn't cause the Muslim world to explode or turn into newts or anything.
 
So you claim that the Qarmatians were something like the Druze. What's your source that they didn't consider themselves Muslims, rather than adding various mystical creeds to Shia Ismaili Islam?

I am not ascribing mystical creeds to Is'maili doctrine. If I was, then I would say something regarding the Fatimid state. However in terms of sources, all of my knowledge regarding these topics come from contemporary sources, you know what these are.
 
Honestly, if Christians took it any time prior to 1600, I can see them deciding to deep-six it all somewhere in the Red Sea or Indian Ocean in an attempt to cause a collapse of the Islamic faith.

I am kind of curious as to what the reaction to that would look like. Would it be never-ending Jihad until all Christians or Muslims are death, would it actually mortally wound Islam, or would Muslims after a bit of mourning just start praying in the direction of the Red Sea/Indian Ocean?
A fun thing is that they might not realise its importance. Portuguese were absolutely sure it was the body of Mahomet in the building, not a rock.
I imagine they'd be very confused
 
I am not ascribing mystical creeds to Is'maili doctrine. If I was, then I would say something regarding the Fatimid state. However in terms of sources, all of my knowledge regarding these topics come from contemporary sources, you know what these are.

Then please explain what "very basics" of Islam the Qarmatians did not adhere to.
 
Honestly, if Christians took it any time prior to 1600, I can see them deciding to deep-six it all somewhere in the Red Sea or Indian Ocean in an attempt to cause a collapse of the Islamic faith.

I am kind of curious as to what the reaction to that would look like. Would it be never-ending Jihad until all Christians or Muslims are death, would it actually mortally wound Islam, or would Muslims after a bit of mourning just start praying in the direction of the Red Sea/Indian Ocean?

I don't think it will make a big difference.
 
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