PC: The Black Prince lives longer if Edward of Angoulême survives

[material_boy]

Several biographers write that Angoulême's death caused the Black Prince to despair (and understandably so) and that his condition greatly worsened as a result, but there's no real detail given here. How much can we speculate as to how the boy's death affected TBP? Would not having to deal with grief and stress of losing his eldest son allow TBP to maintain somewhat better health through his voyage across the sea and upon arriving in England? Could he even end up living a bit longer? Perhaps long enough to survive his father (if even only by a matter of months)?

I'm really curious to hear what others think here. @CaptainShadow @isabella @VVD0D95 @Kellan Sullivan

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Several biographers write that Angoulême's death caused the Black Prince to despair (and understandably so) and that his condition greatly worsened as a result, but there's no real detail given here. How much can we speculate as to how the boy's death affected TBP? Would not having to deal with grief and stress of losing his eldest son allow TBP to maintain somewhat better health through his voyage across the sea and upon arriving in England? Could he even end up living a bit longer? Perhaps long enough to survive his father (if even only by a matter of months)?

I'm really curious to hear what others think here. @CaptainShadow @isabella @VVD0D95 @Kellan Sullivan

I'd like to think he CAN. If only to avoid a John of Gaunt regency @RedKing

 

[RedKing]

I'd like to think he CAN. If only to avoid a John of Gaunt regency @RedKing

I have heard that Edward of Angouleme’s death drained The Black Prince’s health, and did help cause his demise, so I suppose Edward living could help TBP’s health, and result in him living longer (possibly into 1380). So depending when Edward dies, there may be no need for a Regency (or if these is, it will be much, much shorter than OTL).

 

[VVD0D95]

I agree with @Kellan Sullivan and @RedKing, I think EOA surviving could definitely help the Black Prince-without that grief he might be better able to just survive. After all, a child's death really fucks with a parent.

 

[material_boy]

I agree with @Kellan Sullivan and @RedKing, I think EOA surviving could definitely help the Black Prince-without that grief he might be better able to just survive. After all, a child's death really fucks with a parent.

For how much longer, though? A year past his OTL death? Two? More? Less?

 

[VVD0D95]

For how much longer, though? A year past his OTL death? Two? More? Less?

Maybe a year, year and a half. Was his illness that bad before his son died? I’ve never been able to work out how bad it was,

 

[material_boy]

Maybe a year, year and a half. Was his illness that bad before his son died? I’ve never been able to work out how bad it was,

Angoulême died while the Black Prince was besieging Limoges -- his last campaign and one where he was too sick to ride a horse. (He was carried in a litter.) So, he was very sick at this time.

That said, his health apparently worsened so much upon his return to Bordeaux that it was unknown whether he would survive the journey at sea. He did, of course, but was so weakened from it that he couldn't be moved for five weeks after he landed in England. So, how much of this collapse was a) grief over Angoulême's death, b) exhaustion from having gone on campaign at all in his state, and/or c) the natural progression of whatever disease he had is ... well, that's what I'm trying to plausibility check here

 

[VVD0D95]

Angoulême died while the Black Prince was besieging Limoges -- his last campaign and one where he was too sick to ride a horse. (He was carried in a litter.) So, he was very sick at this time.

That said, his health apparently worsened so much upon his return to Bordeaux that it was unknown whether he would survive the journey at sea. He did, of course, but was so weakened from it that he couldn't be moved for five weeks after he landed in England. So, how much of this collapse was a) grief over Angoulême's death, b) exhaustion from having gone on campaign at all in his state, and/or c) the natural progression of whatever disease he had is ... well, that's what I'm trying to plausibility check here

Ahh, hmm, I think his sons death definitrlt didn’t help.I think realistically without his son dying, maybe a year, or two extra for him. I don’t think he’d love to see his son reach majority, but he’d be able to perhaps see the lad grow at least a little more.

 

[Kynan]

Considering his condition prior to his son's death, I doubt he lives that much longer. Yeah, maybe he can scrape out a year or so, but if he's already too weak to ride a horse and fragile enough that a trip by sea leaves him bedridden for that long, he might not be in a position to do much in a Regency anyway. Anything is plausible I guess, but it sounds like at most, grief sped up a march to death already nearing full speed.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

If anything, having even another year of life where the Black Prince becomes king could at least be enough time to square away the regency and affairs before his son takes over, especially if Edward TBP knows he might die at any point. He'll try to arrange the best marriages for his sons, especially for Edward of Angouleme.

 

[material_boy]

Considering his condition prior to his son's death, I doubt he lives that much longer. Yeah, maybe he can scrape out a year or so, but if he's already too weak to ride a horse and fragile enough that a trip by sea leaves him bedridden for that long, he might not be in a position to do much in a Regency anyway. Anything is plausible I guess, but it sounds like at most, grief sped up a march to death already nearing full speed.

Well, he did "recover" enough that, in 1372, he attempted to lead an army back to Aquitaine, but winds pushed the fleet back to shore and the expedition was called off. He worked a bit behind the scenes, in between bouts of being bedridden. (His condition -- and his mysterious wasting disease generally -- reads very much like that of Henry IV 1408-1413.)

If anything, having even another year of life where the Black Prince becomes king could at least be enough time to square away the regency and affairs before his son takes over, especially if Edward TBP knows he might die at any point. He'll try to arrange the best marriages for his sons, especially for Edward of Angouleme.

This is mostly what interests me. His mind remains sharp, unlike that of his father, even as his body fails him. I think that we'd see a very different regency if he lived on long enough to be the one in control of setting it up.

I'm also curious how he'd react to the end of the Good Parliament. His retainers were known to be among the allies of the reformers in the commons early on, but their alliance with March and his retainers only seemed to extend as far as Alice Perrers and a couple of officials connected with her. TBP had a very lofty view of kingship and the royal prerogative, and so I am strongly inclined to think that -- if he'd lived on to see the parliament through to the end -- he'd view the reforms that parliament forced upon royal government after removing Perrers and her cabal as an extreme overreach considering that the parliament imposed its will on the crown and then refused to grant taxation to fund the war. I think he'd rather quickly and strongly align himself with Gaunt and lords in crushing the upstarts in the commons in late-76 and 77.