PC: Split English

With a POD after 1500, can we create a situation where English splits into at least two separate languages as distinct as Dutch and Afrikaans? The resulting languages may still be mutually intelligible, but the point is for them to be widely regarded as separate languages, rather than just dialects.

And don't just say "OTL English creoles", since those were never fully-fledged dialects of English to begin with. I want something a little more akin to Afrikaans or the Serbo-Croatian situation.
 
With a POD after 1500, can we create a situation where English splits into at least two separate languages as distinct as Dutch and Afrikaans? The resulting languages may still be mutually intelligible, but the point is for them to be widely regarded as separate languages, rather than just dialects.

And don't just say "OTL English creoles", since those were never fully-fledged dialects of English to begin with. I want something a little more akin to Afrikaans or the Serbo-Croatian situation.
It did happen- Scots diverged around the mid 1500s.
 
Ben Franklin's new alphabet is adopted by the US and eventually linguists get more and more nationalistic until someone start talking about an American language.
 
Old Irish lords stay in power ultimately resulting in a gaelicised middle English called Irish English being spoken there.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
As others have pointed out: OTL examples exist. Of course, an ATL (additional and more influential) example can easily be created by having English and 'American' diverge considerably more than in OTL. There were tendencies towards this on both sides of the Atlantic, and it could be credibly argued that modern British English has actually diverged more from 'pre-split English' than American English has (although the verdict there does depend on which particular elements you pay most attention to). American English becoming 'estranged' is more likely than, say Canadian or Australian English deviating more extremely. Such alternatives are certainly possible, but less likely because those countries stayed with Britain for far longer, thus being more influenced by it. As such, the option to turn 'American' into a distinct language is easily the best bet, and using a scenario where (British) English also changes more than in OTL--but just in the "opposite direction"--maximises the potential for differences.

A possible ATL that could get you spectacular results is the famous "Jacobites in American exile" scenario. If this leads to a Catholic Anglo-American country that is estranged from (and likely hostile to) England, this country could be allied to France. The "Atlantic divide" with Britain keep the two very much apart, while the Anglo-Americans are influenced by their (also Catholic) Franco-American and Spanish-American neighbours. An "American" language eventually develops, which is more like historical English (it doesn't change along with the language in Britain, retaining its existing form by and large), but with the kind of random changes that just creep in over time, and strongly influenced by French and (to some degree) Spanish. At the same time, this scenario leads to stronger anti-French and anti-Catholic tendencies in Britain, and during the ATL age of nationalism, English is purposely formalised in a way that reduces Romance elements to a minimum. Additionally, the general evolution of the English language is simply different than the isolated "American" language.

By the present day, the two languages are totally distinct.

(Granted, the old "America goes with Franklin's alphabet and Webster's preferred spelling and take it from there, boys!"-POD would also suffice, but I think the above would get you a more extreme result.)
 
You mean Scotsgael? It's a whole different language no?

I'm afraid you're mistaking two things here. Scots and Scottish Gaelic are two wholly unrelated languages from different language families. You're thinking of the latter, which is a Goidelic language spoken only by a tiny minority of Scots today (and didn't last all that long as a national language pre-Act of Union). The former is a sister language of Late Middle/Early Modern English that derives from Northumbrian Old English in a similar way that Afrikaans is descended from Middle Dutch but isn't the SAME as Modern Dutch.
 
Try reading Shakespeare in Jamacian English and you'll be sorely tempted to think this is already the case IOTL..

Jamaican Patois (aka Jamaican English) is, despite the confusing nomenclature, a separate language from English. Since it's a creole language, it doesn't count as having emerged from an English dialect as per the OP.

Having said that, the OP is a little confusing because many linguists do describe Afrikaans as a Dutch-derived creole so Jamaican Patois actually would be the analogous case from that perspective.
 
I thing given enought time, English could evolve into different languages, just like the old Romanic and Germanic states did. Maybe with a longer lasting, but earlier and wider spread British/ English global Empire. That would give some additional influence and points of differenciation, but overall things like revolutions (cultural, religious or even "only" political) could be a good starting point for various interest groups to slowly or fast reshape the English Language into something of their own wishing I assume?
 
Jamaican Patois (aka Jamaican English) is, despite the confusing nomenclature, a separate language from English. Since it's a creole language, it doesn't count as having emerged from an English dialect as per the OP.

Jamaican English is a dialect of English (aka Engish with a Jamaican accent). Jamaican Patois is a distinct Creole language.
 
Jamaican English is a dialect of English (aka Engish with a Jamaican accent). Jamaican Patois is a distinct Creole language.

That’s a nice distinction to make, but unfortunately from my travels there, Jamaicans themselves refer to patois as “English dialect” or “Jamaican English” or something of the sort, making it pretty hard to use such a term as “Jamaican English” to mean something else and convey the distinction to Jamaicans.

Anyway the non-creole Jamaican variety of English is mutually comprehensible with English, it’s just confusing due to extensive code switching into patois.
 
That’s a nice distinction to make, but unfortunately from my travels there, Jamaicans themselves refer to patois as “English dialect” or “Jamaican English” or something of the sort, making it pretty hard to use such a term as “Jamaican English” to mean something else and convey the distinction to Jamaicans.

Anyway the non-creole Jamaican variety of English is mutually comprehensible with English, it’s just confusing due to extensive code switching into patois.

That's interesting, but, the fact that least-educated native speakers don't know how to properly understand their languages don't invalidate the clear distinction between the two languages. From what I saw on Youtube Jamaican Patois is very much different from, let's say, Bob Marley's accent.

Also, code switching can vary a lot in this case, see post-creole continuum.
 
That depends on your definition of dialect and language.

One could argue that Scots is a dialect of English, or Afrikaans being a dialect of Dutch.

With a PoD far enough back Dutch would just be a dialect of German, or Portuguese a dialect of Spanish.
 
With a PoD far enough back Dutch would just be a dialect of German, or Portuguese a dialect of Spanish.
Well, it is reasonable to argue that Dutch is a dialect of Low German due to similarity, and all of the Romance languages are on a dialect continuum so you can make pretty much any boundary you want there.
 
I'm afraid you're mistaking two things here. Scots and Scottish Gaelic are two wholly unrelated languages from different language families. You're thinking of the latter, which is a Goidelic language spoken only by a tiny minority of Scots today (and didn't last all that long as a national language pre-Act of Union). The former is a sister language of Late Middle/Early Modern English that derives from Northumbrian Old English in a similar way that Afrikaans is descended from Middle Dutch but isn't the SAME as Modern Dutch.
Possible PODs : Edward VI survives to adulthood and fathers a son. As a result, the Tudors have a continuing line in England and the Stuarts reign in Edinburgh. Scots English , (possibly influenced by French) because of the Auld Alliance goes its own way. An important part of this is that the Scots nobility stay in Sctoland for the most part, and the Received Tongue for the upper classes is from Edinburgh or Stirling rather than London.
The divergence in language will be profound. Robert Burns' 18th century poems are even in OTL are almost as hard to read as Chaucer and the vowel sounds and vocabulary given 200 years further evolution will satisfy the tin.

Alternatively, Elizabeth I decides to marry an English noble with much the same result. The Act of Union never takes place and Scotland remains independent with her own separate but related form of English to the present day. Of course, this deprives the British Empire of a great many talented administrators, explorers and soldiers, but as someone with ancestors on both sides of the border, I kind of wish it had gone that way.
 
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