PC: Siad Barre overthrown after the Ogaden War

I sent you several links about Ogaden War.

You have not read them.Why?

Your sources are ethiopian so they support Ethiopian point of view.
 
I sent you several links about Ogaden War.

You have not read them.Why?

Your sources are ethiopian so they support Ethiopian point of view.
I've read through those links - they usually just state that the Soviets and Cubans saved Mengistu's regime without actually going into detail about the Ogaden War itself, especially those videos of yours like the CNN one which goes more into depth about the diplomacy behind the Ogaden War while giving a bit of background on both countries. The only ones that go into any sort of detail about the conflict between Ethiopia and Somalia is Ethiopia-Somalia: Continuing Military Imbalance in the Ogaden and the Somali sources you give are heavily biased in favor of the Somali side, the same bias that you accuse of my sources possessing, especially Col. Abdullahi Jama's report.

If your point is that Ethiopia would've disintegrated without Soviet-Cuban assistance, why is it that Ethiopia avoided disintegration for six months straight before it came?
 
Last edited:
Most of historians agree Cuban and Russian rescued Ethiopia in 1978.

Cuban and Russian role was decisive to defeat Somalia in 1978. I dont think Mengistu could have resisted an attrition war against Somalia, because Ethiopia had many internal insurgencies in 1977. Mengistu could have not deal with these internal enemies without foreign powers.
 
Cuban and Russian role was decisive to defeat Somalia in 1978. I dont think Mengistu could have resisted an attrition war against Somalia, because Ethiopia had many internal insurgencies in 1977. Mengistu could have not deal with these internal enemies without foreign powers.
I'd agree that the Soviets and Cubans played a decisive role in defeating Somalia but you raise an interesting point on Mengistu's ability to deal with the insurgencies. I'd like to point out that the only insurgencies capable of actually affecting the central Ethiopian government's ability to persecute the war against Somalia were those in Tigray and Eritrea - the rest were too fractured and/or weak to do anything of significance but this may change as time goes on.
 
Mengistu was very weak in 1977. He could not deal with Oromos, Tigray and Eritrea in 1977.

Ethiopia only destroyed WSLF and SALF thanks to Soviet and Cuban role.

WSLF was an amazing insurgency but internal problems destroyed its military capacities.

WSLF is an interesting insurgency that almost defeat Mengistu Haile Mariam. People should know more about it.
 
Mengistu was very weak in 1977. He could not deal with Oromos, Tigray and Eritrea in 1977.

Ethiopia only destroyed WSLF and SALF thanks to Soviet and Cuban role.

WSLF was an amazing insurgency but internal problems destroyed its military capacities.

WSLF is an interesting insurgency that almost defeat Mengistu Haile Mariam. People should know more about it.
I wouldn’t say that about the weaker Oromo ethnonationalist movements but the Tigrayan and Eritrean insurgencies could get out of hand as they were already doing, depending on what happens.

No, the WSLF was largely destroyed by Ethiopian forces who’d been equipped with Soviet armaments. See Gebru Tareke’s From Lash to Red Star: The pitfalls of Counter-Insurgency in Ethiopia, 1980-82 for a more in-depth analysis.

In addition to the internal divisions, the WSLF’s main problems were it having been weakened by the Ogaden War, Mogadishu ending support in the 1980s and fighting with other groups such as the SALF.

It did not “almost defeat” Mengistu - what it did was come into control of a third of the Ogaden after forcing Ethiopian forces in the Ogaden into its bunkers and fortifications. This isn’t saying much, especially considering the state of Ethiopian forces in the Ogaden at the time and the extensive support from Mogadishu to the WSLF.
 
We have different opinions about Cuban role in Ogaden War.

You can not deny that Ethiopians have forgotten Cuban role in Ogaden War, they dont even remember Cuban soldiers who died for Ethiopia.

There is an old and dirty monument in Addis Ababa, but this not enought for me. Cubans deserve a bigger and a better monument for their aid to Ethiopia.

Jijiga victory (1978) is as important as Adowa triumph.
 
You can not deny that Ethiopians have forgotten Cuban role in Ogaden War, they dont even remember Cuban soldiers who died for Ethiopia.

There is an old and dirty monument in Addis Ababa, but this not enought for me. Cubans deserve a bigger and a better monument for their aid to Ethiopia.

Jijiga victory (1978) is as important as Adowa triumph.
Where are you getting this notion from? No, Ethiopians haven't forgotten the Cuban role in the Ogaden War and often possess fond memories of Cubans because of this.

I'd agree, that monument needs to be replaced with a better one, especially the deteoriating state I've seen it in.

Although the victory at Jijiga in 1978 is important, I don't think you can necessarily equate it with the victory at Adwa in 1896.
 
Without Jijiga victory, Ethiopia would have fall apart in 1978. Ethiopia couldnt have resisted those insurgencies without foreign support.
 
Without Jijiga victory, Ethiopia would have fall apart in 1978. Ethiopia couldn't have resisted those insurgencies without foreign support.
Ethiopia wouldn't have fallen apart without the victory at Jijiga, especially considering it was actually successfully defending against and even pushing back the SNA at Harar, Kore, Gursum and Kombolcha fronts prior to any substantial assistance from either the USSR or Cuba. In regards to the insurgencies in Tigray and Eritrea, I don't think that's a foregone conclusion - the TPLF and EPLF were also facing pressure from not just the Derg but the many insurgencies that sought to displace them as well which includes the EDU, EPRP, etc. So, the insurgencies can be tied down in this same brutal fighting that the Derg takes advantage of to focus more on forcing Somalia into breaking in this attrition while also providing the Derg an opportunity at the northern provinces to carry out a more successful counteroffensive against these insurgencies who're now in much the same situation that the southern insurgencies were during Operation Lash.
 
Derg was fighting many internal enemies and was unable to defeat all them. Derg only controlled a small part of Ethiopia in 1977.

I think is very difficult to accept my point of view, but this is the opinion of many historians.
 
Derg was fighting many internal enemies and was unable to defeat all them. Derg only controlled a small part of Ethiopia in 1977.

I think is very difficult to accept my point of view, but this is the opinion of many historians.
Yes, the Derg was fighting quite a few internal enemies and wasn't able to defeat them all IOTL but to say they only controlled a small part of Ethiopia is a bit disingenuous - it governed large swathes of western, central and southern Ethiopia by 1977 which had been won over by the 1975-76 reforms. The only regions of the country that were under the control of successful insurgents were Eritrea and Ogaden by then, other insurgencies unable to firmly control what they hold for a number of reasons that've already been mentioned.

It's difficult because you continue to repeat the narrative that Ethiopia would've disintegrated without Soviet-Cuban assistance, despite my having refuted your points, while jumping all over the place with your shifting goalposts. About those historians of yours, they don't seem to know much of the Ogaden War other than "Somalia occupied 90% of the Ogaden, Ethiopia received massive support from the Eastern Bloc and it was only that which saved Mengistu's regime" and some of the diplomacy behind the war at the time.
 
It's difficult because you continue to repeat the narrative that Ethiopia would've disintegrated without Soviet-Cuban assistance, despite my having refuted your points, while jumping all over the place with your shifting goalposts.

You have not refuted any of my points.

Ethiopia is always saved by foreign powers.

Portugal saved Ethiopia in 1543.

England saved Selassie in 1941.;)


 
The important issue here is somali people opinion about 1977 war.

Somali people agree its army was defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union.
 
You have not refuted any of my points.

Ethiopia is always saved by foreign powers.

Portugal saved Ethiopia in 1543.

England saved Selassie in 1941.;)
I have indeed refuted your points multiple times, I recommend reading the past posts I've written. I'd also like to point out that neither Adal nor Italy were ever going to hold onto Ethiopia for a number of reasons that deserve a separate post but also about how you keep bringing up things that are completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
The important issue here is somali people opinion about 1977 war.

Somali people agree its army was defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union.
Ethiopian people also agree that the Cubans and Soviets defeated the SNA, your point? What the people think is often opinion as you note, not objective fact.
Somalia-Ethiopia border conflict in 1982.

This little known conflict between Somalia and Ethiopia ended in a stalemate.

Mengistu tried to topple Barre but the foray failed in August 1982.

Ethiopian troops and SSDF could only capture two somali towns (Balambale and Goldogob).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Ethiopian–Somali_Border_War
I'm aware of this conflict as well but why do you continue to bring up topics with no relevance to what we're talking about?
 
I have indeed refuted your points multiple times

No, You have not.


Somalis think, they were defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union not Ethiopia. My sources support their point of view.


I would like to talk about 1982 war. This is an interesting topic.
 
No, You have not.

Somalis think, they were defeated by Cuba and Soviet Union not Ethiopia. My sources support their point of view.
Was your point not that Ethiopia would've disintegrated without the Soviet-Cuban aid from 1977-78?

Why do you keep prioritizing what Somalis think over everything else? As I've pointed out before, most of your sources focus more on the diplomatic background of the Ogaden War and then provide a brief summary which is nothing more than the common perception of the war - your only source that goes into elaboration is Ethiopia-Somalia: Military Imbalance in the Ogaden and even then, it chooses to focus on the military situation in the Ogaden during the 1980s.[/QUOTE]
 
Why do you keep prioritizing what Somalis think over everything else? As I've pointed out before, most of your sources focus more on the diplomatic background of the Ogaden War and then provide a brief summary which is nothing more than the common perception of the war - your only source that goes into elaboration is Ethiopia-Somalia: Military Imbalance in the Ogaden and even then, it chooses to focus on the military situation in the Ogaden during the 1980s

My sources are clear, Ethiopia was saved by Cuba and Soviet Union. If you dont want to accept them, this not my problem.

Your sources are ethiopians and of course they support ethiopian point of view, my sources are americans, russians and somalis and they support my standpoint.

I have more infomation than you about Ogaden War.

I have read all your sources.

Can you show me Somali, American or Russian sources that support your standpoint?;);)
 
Last edited:
Top