PC: Reversed Reformation

How plausible is a Reformation scenario where instead of northern Germany and Scandinavia spearheading the Reformation (in the sense of breaking with Rome), you have Spain, Portugal, or France leading it instead?

For what it's worth, I think of the English Reformation as a sui generis event - I think England was on the fence IOTL and in most ATLs; it's just that they needed a push in a certain direction (like Henry VIII being frustrated with not getting a son IOTL).

Perhaps a different Habsburg ascendancy? Perhaps the Church adopts doctrines more conciliatory to German burghers and dukes than Spanish tastes?
 
Iberian kingdoms' identity was closely tied to Catholicism because of the Reconquista, Reformation for them is probably an instant no-go.
 
Iberian kingdoms' identity was closely tied to Catholicism because of the Reconquista, Reformation for them is probably an instant no-go.
Slash Catholicism for Christianity and I'd agree with you. However, I wouldn't think it impossible to see an ATL where the Curia is seen as essentially having betrayed Christianity and so the Churches of Iberia declare independence so to speak. Ironically a POD might be more conciliation with Hus, Luther, and princes that support them that results in the Spaniards and Portuguese viewing the Church as overly beholden to German interests.
 
Slash Catholicism for Christianity and I'd agree with you. However, I wouldn't think it impossible to see an ATL where the Curia is seen as essentially having betrayed Christianity and so the Churches of Iberia declare independence so to speak. Ironically a POD might be more conciliation with Hus, Luther, and princes that support them that results in the Spaniards and Portuguese viewing the Church as overly beholden to German interests.

A Hussite War POD might be our best bet indeed. Remember than IOTL the 15th century saw the Hussite Wars, the end of the Western Schism, and the Council of Constance - a ton of very important religious events that had different tenors.
 
Slash Catholicism for Christianity and I'd agree with you. However, I wouldn't think it impossible to see an ATL where the Curia is seen as essentially having betrayed Christianity and so the Churches of Iberia declare independence so to speak. Ironically a POD might be more conciliation with Hus, Luther, and princes that support them that results in the Spaniards and Portuguese viewing the Church as overly beholden to German interests.
If the Dominicans or Franciscans are suppressed like the Jesuits were, that could also up anti-Rome sentiment in Iberia.
 
We probably need the holy see moving north. Proximity to Rome was a huge factor in who converted and who didn't.

Maybe if there is another Islamic invasion of Italy and France the pope is convinced that he needs his seat north of the alps to be safe.
 
We probably need the holy see moving north. Proximity to Rome was a huge factor in who converted and who didn't.

Maybe if there is another Islamic invasion of Italy and France the pope is convinced that he needs his seat north of the alps to be safe.

Or the Kaiser brings the Pope north, or have a different outcome to the Avignon papacy.
 
One of the drivers of the Reformation was increased literacy and the common man being able to read and question the Bible. Another was church congregations not being able to follow Latin services given how different the language was. These don't apply to Iberia.
 
I could suggest Florence Savonarola.
His teachings were radical and not too distant from Lutheran ones.
 
One of the drivers of the Reformation was increased literacy and the common man being able to read and question the Bible. Another was church congregations not being able to follow Latin services given how different the language was. These don't apply to Iberia.

Let's not forget atomized political and military authority that gave Reformation dissidents plenty of oppritunities to find patronage and obtain safe harbors to organize and convert, as well as being able to offer something in return (moralistic and legalistic tools to attack the relatively isolated power and wealth of the Church as a means to strengthen the temporal nobility who were backing them, allowing monarchs and city leaders to undercut ecclesastical and rural petty nobility in a power bid). Iberia dident really have those conditions, with the Church being tightly wound in with the Crown rather than outside and somewhat dismissive of it. Similar conditions in France.

I suppose you could have a proper "reverse reformation" in which Rome goes off in a different direction and the traditionalist clergy try to "Re-form" it's old structure
 
I could suggest Florence Savonarola.
His teachings were radical and not too distant from Lutheran ones.

He is, objectively, too close to Rome. If he's the first spark of the Reformation, well, the Pope still has an army at this point, remember?

Let's not forget atomized political and military authority that gave Reformation dissidents plenty of oppritunities to find patronage and obtain safe harbors to organize and convert, as well as being able to offer something in return (moralistic and legalistic tools to attack the relatively isolated power and wealth of the Church as a means to strengthen the temporal nobility who were backing them, allowing monarchs and city leaders to undercut ecclesastical and rural petty nobility in a power bid). Iberia dident really have those conditions, with the Church being tightly wound in with the Crown rather than outside and somewhat dismissive of it. Similar conditions in France.

I suppose you could have a proper "reverse reformation" in which Rome goes off in a different direction and the traditionalist clergy try to "Re-form" it's old structure

Yeah, it would essentially be the Church trying to reconfigure itself to operate ideally in the Reich, to the point where the administration of the Church in Iberia begins to come into contact with the Kings. You could also try to have a dispute broil over about the New World: perhaps both sides see Tordesillas as overly favorable to the other's interests, leading to conflict with the Church, and more overt Papal interference or condemnation of the Encomienda system and enslavement of the natives.

Ideally, you would get a combination of these approaches; particularly ideally, you would have a pope from somewhere in the Reich. I would love to somehow see an Erasmus Pontifex TL leading to hardliners in the Iberian church splitting off, but I doubt that there's any way to make it happen. Essentially, the Catholic Reformation happens before/instead of the Protestant Reformation, but without the Protestant threat the hardline traditionalists in Iberia spin off to do their own thing. They probably don't call themselves Prodestandos/Protestants, however. A good comparison might be the Raskolniki in Russia, if they had had any state support.
 
Slash Catholicism for Christianity and I'd agree with you. However, I wouldn't think it impossible to see an ATL where the Curia is seen as essentially having betrayed Christianity and so the Churches of Iberia declare independence so to speak. Ironically a POD might be more conciliation with Hus, Luther, and princes that support them that results in the Spaniards and Portuguese viewing the Church as overly beholden to German interests.

Indeed. Shift accents slightly, stress importance of the royal power vs the Church and there could be something of an English-style Reformation with less stress on cutting the "visuals" in the Churches and emphasis upon the royal supremacy. Partial confiscation of the Church property and distribution of (part) of the spoils could make the whole thing more popular. After all, Phillip II was seemingly considering himself somewhat superior to the Pope as far as the direct communications with the Deity were involved. No need to change a doctrine, just redefine who is the boss. Of course, chance in OTL was slim but not zero.
 
He is, objectively, too close to Rome. If he's the first spark of the Reformation, well, the Pope still has an army at this point, remember?



Yeah, it would essentially be the Church trying to reconfigure itself to operate ideally in the Reich, to the point where the administration of the Church in Iberia begins to come into contact with the Kings. You could also try to have a dispute broil over about the New World: perhaps both sides see Tordesillas as overly favorable to the other's interests, leading to conflict with the Church, and more overt Papal interference or condemnation of the Encomienda system and enslavement of the natives.

Ideally, you would get a combination of these approaches; particularly ideally, you would have a pope from somewhere in the Reich. I would love to somehow see an Erasmus Pontifex TL leading to hardliners in the Iberian church splitting off, but I doubt that there's any way to make it happen. Essentially, the Catholic Reformation happens before/instead of the Protestant Reformation, but without the Protestant threat the hardline traditionalists in Iberia spin off to do their own thing. They probably don't call themselves Prodestandos/Protestants, however. A good comparison might be the Raskolniki in Russia, if they had had any state support.

You got me confused. Raskolniki were traditionalists who refused to accept the reform of the Russian Church (which was more or less limited to fixing irregularities that accumulated during the centuries). How analogy is working in your schema?
 
You got me confused. Raskolniki were traditionalists who refused to accept the reform of the Russian Church (which was more or less limited to fixing irregularities that accumulated during the centuries). How analogy is working in your schema?

In that they diverge by rejecting, rather than advocating, reform.
 
One of the drivers of the Reformation was increased literacy and the common man being able to read and question the Bible. Another was church congregations not being able to follow Latin services given how different the language was. These don't apply to Iberia.

IDK, the Reformers might have rejected the Catholic Church, but that doesn't mean that they were in favour of people questioning (their preferred interpretation of) the Bible. Protestant states were every bit as ready to enforce religious unity as Catholic ones during this period. As for Latin in church, whilst the Reformers were in favour of having services in the vernacular, I don't think this is usually considered a driver for the Reformation. Also, a good part of the service was said sotto voce during this period, rendering questions of linguistic similarity moot.
 
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