PC: Muslim Ming Dynasty?

[Alexander the Average]

Muslims played a pretty big role in the Ming government and there were numerous Muslim generals in the Red Turban Rebellion that overthrew the Yuan, at least one of whom was allegedly adopted by the Hongwu Emperor. The Hongwu Emperor's wife, Empress Xiaocigao/Ma Hou, also had a common Muslim family name, though I haven't been able to confirm if she was of Hui extraction. There was also a rebellion in Fuijan led by Muslim soldiers during the Red Turban Rebellions, though they were suppressed by Yuan loyalists.

The general idea I have is that the Ispah Rebellion is more successful and links up with the Ming. Towards the end of, or shortly after, the Red Turban Rebellion Zhu Yuanzhang, the OTL Hongwu Emperor, dies and is succeeded by one of his Muslim generals, either Mu Ying, his adopted son, or Lan Yu, who was accused of trying to rebel IOTL though that might have just been an excuse for a purge. Timur dies earlier, resulting in a much more prosperous Iran and Central Asia able to exert greater economic and cultural influence on China and a stronger Northern Silk Road. During their wars with the Northern Yuan the Ming are able to subjugate the Muslim Öljei Temür Khan and prop him up as a vassal, leading to the Islamisation of Mongolia and Eastern Siberia and a more secure northern border.

 

[Avrorrange]

Not that plausible based on the scenario you presented. Zhu Yuanzhang had A LOT of sons. And even more adopted sons. Even if Mu Ying was a born a Muslim, he was essentially as Muslim as Zhu Yuanzhang was, given he was raised by a guy who was not himself one(same deal with Empress Ma, given she was also raised by a non-Muslim). Lan Yu becoming emperor is a pretty remote possibility as well, given there were far more senior generals alive during the early Ming period.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Not that plausible based on the scenario you presented. Zhu Yuanzhang had A LOT of sons. And even more adopted sons. Even if Mu Ying was a born a Muslim, he was essentially as Muslim as Zhu Yuanzhang was, given he was raised by a guy who was not himself one(same deal with Empress Ma, given she was also raised by a non-Muslim). Lan Yu becoming emperor is a pretty remote possibility as well, given there were far more senior generals alive during the early Ming period.

If Zhu Yuanzhang were to die in the later stages of the Red Turban Rebellion, lets say that he is wounded at the Battle of Lake Poyang and dies shortly after, who would be likely to succeed him? Assuming that the Ming don't fall apart.

 

[Avrorrange]

If Zhu Yuanzhang were to die in the later stages of the Red Turban Rebellion, lets say that he is wounded at the Battle of Lake Poyang and dies shortly after, who would be likely to succeed him? Assuming that the Ming don't fall apart.

His most likely successor would have been his older brother’s son Zhu Wenzheng(朱文正).The man was an adult and was one of Zhu Yuanzhang’s key commanders—who played a decisive role in the Ming victory during the Battle of Lake Poyang.He also happened to hold the rank of Supreme Commander under Zhu Yuanzhang.It is also very likely however that Zhu Wenzheng might just rule through his younger cousins as a power behind the throne for some time.

 

[Alexander the Average]

I don't suppose that Zhu Yuanzhang having a religious experience and converting to, or at least being even more sympathetic to, Islam is out of the question? Maybe he has a dream or revelation before the Battle of Lake Poyang and ends up attributing his victory to Allah? Sort of like a Chinese Muslim Constantine.

 

[Avrorrange]

I don't suppose that Zhu Yuanzhang having a religious experience and converting to, or at least being even more sympathetic to, Islam is out of the question? Maybe he has a dream or revelation before the Battle of Lake Poyang and ends up attributing his victory to Allah? Sort of like a Chinese Muslim Constantine.

You could. He almost died/captured during the OTL Battle of Lake Poyang and only escaped after his subordinate exchanged his identity with him. Although the man was a fucking chameleon. He was buddhist monk, joined a Manichaean movement, and then turned on said movement after he became emperor.

 

[Alexander the Average]

You could. He almost died/captured during the OTL Battle of Lake Poyang and only escaped after his subordinate exchanged his identity with him. Although the man was a fucking chameleon. He was buddhist monk, joined a Manichaean movement, and then turned on said movement after he became emperor.

It could work with a PoD of a more successful/less sectarian Ispah Rebellion that allies with the Ming? Having a stronger Muslim powerbase in his coalition could lead him to play up his Islamophilia, if only for opportunistic reasons, and cultivate some ambiguity over whether or not he has fully converted to appeal to the Muslim factions whilst not alienating traditionalists and Buddhists, very much like Constantine and Christianity. Later Emperors, possibly including Mu Ying if Zhu Yuanzhang dies earlier and the other candidates are seen as too young or is initially installed by Zhu Wenzheng as a puppet, go further and fully embrace it, with official court histories claiming that he had converted once Islam had become more securely entrenched.

 

[Avrorrange]

It could work with a PoD of a more successful/less sectarian Ispah Rebellion that allies with the Ming? Having a stronger Muslim powerbase in his coalition could lead him to play up his Islamophilia, if only for opportunistic reasons, and cultivate some ambiguity over whether or not he has fully converted to appeal to the Muslim factions whilst not alienating traditionalists and Buddhists, very much like Constantine and Christianity. Later Emperors, possibly including Mu Ying if Zhu Yuanzhang dies earlier and the other candidates are seen as too young or is initially installed by Zhu Wenzheng as a puppet, go further and fully embrace it, with official court histories claiming that he had converted once Islam had become more securely entrenched.

I think Zhu Di might be a better candidate.He actually had a real practicing Muslim in his court(Zheng He).

 

[Alexander the Average]

I think Zhu Di might be a better candidate.He actually had a real practicing Muslim in his court(Zheng He).

Alternatively, what about Zhu Biao? He died young before he could take the throne but the illness that killed him can be butterflied away (maybe have Yuanzhang die from it instead?). He also apparently had a good relationship with Lan Yu, who might still be alive ITTL if Yuanzhang dies earlier and doesn't purge him, unlike Di who was his rival. Di was also a Chinese cultural traditionalists and whilst he didn't persecute Islam, in fact patronising mosques and employing Muslims in his court much like his predecessors, I also don't see him favouring it either. Biao was also apparently opposed to his father's purges, which the official histories presented as him being naive and kindhearted, which means that he might not be inclined to purge any growing Muslim cliques in his court.

 

[Alexander the Average]

I'm also trying to think of a good name for a timeline based on their premise. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Been thinking of what sort of reforms the Muslim Ming might make, particularly to the Imperial Examinations.

Major works on Hanafi Jurisprudence, the dominant Madhab among Hui, Indian and Central Asian Muslims, as well as native Hui texts extolling the virtues and compatibility of Islam with Chinese values would seem like natural additions to the curriculum. I also wonder if Ibn Khaldun's Muqaddimah would make an appropriate and interesting addition, particularly the intersections between Asabiyyah and Filial Piety and his cyclical view of history with the ideas of the Mandate of Heaven. I could also see submission to the submission of Humans to God being added as a sixth Confucian relation, with the relations of Muslims to Muslims and Muslims to Dhimmis possibly also being added or examined through a Confucian lens.

I could also see Islamic missionaries in China embracing the printing press to meet the demand for religious texts and by extension introducing it to the wider Islamic world earlier.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Thinking of having Li Zhi, or an alt version of him, be one of the main figures in late Ming Islamic-Confucianism and Islamising government reforms, possibly even serving as Prime Minister at some point. His family remains Muslim ITTL and I could see him mixing his views on gender equality with some of the more egalitarian strains in Islam, particularly ideas that all are equal before God and the role of women during the Rashidun period, which later open the door for more radical movements. In particular I could see them outlawing foot binding, implementing Islamic inheritance rights that grant women a share of their parent's property and maybe even certain divorce rights. In terms of the broader factional struggle the shift towards Islamic-Confucianism represents a curtailing of the Scholar-Bureaucrat class who end up split between the predominantly Muslim pro reformists and anti-reform Orthodox Neo-Confucians. Alongside the reforms to policy and ideology are a number of measures that benefit the pro-merchant faction in Fujian, wiping out the last vestiges of the Haijin and strengthening the navy.

 

[Avrorrange]

Alternatively, what about Zhu Biao? He died young before he could take the throne but the illness that killed him can be butterflied away (maybe have Yuanzhang die from it instead?). He also apparently had a good relationship with Lan Yu, who might still be alive ITTL if Yuanzhang dies earlier and doesn't purge him, unlike Di who was his rival. Di was also a Chinese cultural traditionalists and whilst he didn't persecute Islam, in fact patronising mosques and employing Muslims in his court much like his predecessors, I also don't see him favouring it either. Biao was also apparently opposed to his father's purges, which the official histories presented as him being naive and kindhearted, which means that he might not be inclined to purge any growing Muslim cliques in his court.

Zhu Biao is rather unlikely to succeed because he was essentially too weak to push for something this radical.Furthermore,it would alienate a lot of conservative bureaucrats for defying the will of his father .who wrote a massive list of instructions requiring successive emperors to obey.These instructions more or less formed Ming’a ‘constitution’.To establish Islam firmly in China,you need a ruler that’s competent and feared by the rest of the population.Zhu Di was the only emperor after Zhu Yuanzhang that was such,and he the only one who succeeded in defying a lot of his father’s instructions.

 

[Alexander the Average]

Zhu Biao is rather unlikely to succeed because he was essentially too weak to push for something this radical.Furthermore,it would alienate a lot of conservative bureaucrats for defying the will of his father .who wrote a massive list of instructions requiring successive emperors to obey.These instructions more or less formed Ming’a ‘constitution’.To establish Islam firmly in China,you need a ruler that’s competent and feared by the rest of the population.Zhu Di was the only emperor after Zhu Yuanzhang that was such,and he the only one who succeeded in defying a lot of his father’s instructions.

I'm actually kind of banking on him being a somewhat weak leader dependent on the support of various figures and factions, particularly Lan Yu. Rather than Zhu Di's absolutist rule that centralised a lot of power among the Palace Eunuchs, Zhu Biao is more of a popular figurehead in front of several factions in an uneasy power-sharing alliance. The Early Ming are more factionally balanced, and whilst there is a period of equilibrium between the different centres of power it is going to break down over time, which will present opportunities for different factions to win out.

 

[Avrorrange]

I'm actually kind of banking on him being a somewhat weak leader dependent on the support of various figures and factions, particularly Lan Yu. Rather than Zhu Di's absolutist rule that centralised a lot of power among the Palace Eunuchs, Zhu Biao is more of a popular figurehead in front of several factions in an uneasy power-sharing alliance. The Early Ming are more factionally balanced, and whilst there is a period of equilibrium between the different centres of power it is going to break down over time, which will present opportunities for different factions to win out.

If he was a weak figure,he would not try to convert to Islam.By all accounts,he was very much a status quo kind of figure.More traditional than Zhu Di in fact and like his son,was very pro-Confucian. Lan Yu in my opinion would have been purged sooner or later even if Zhu Biao was in charge—unless he died of old age before that happened.He was screwed because he was a loose cannon and he was a supporter of Zhu Biao’s younger son. If there was some kind of Milvian Bridge event for Zhu Di during the Jingnan campaign, then that could potentially seal the deal.

 

[Alexander the Average]

If he was a weak figure,he would not try to convert to Islam.By all accounts,he was very much a status quo kind of figure.More traditional than Zhu Di in fact and like his son,was very pro-Confucian. Lan Yu in my opinion would have been purged sooner or later even if Zhu Biao was in charge—unless he died of old age before that happened.He was screwed because he was a loose cannon and he was a supporter of Zhu Biao’s younger son. If there was some kind of Milvian Bridge event for Zhu Di during the Jingnan campaign, then that could potentially seal the deal.

He isn't necesserily going to be the one to convert. I was thinking it would be a few more Emperors down the line.

 

[Avrorrange]

He isn't necesserily going to be the one to convert. I was thinking it would be a few more Emperors down the line.

That’s the thing.The further down the line,the less chance of that happening because the power and skill of the emperors would decrease.

 

[Alexander the Average]

That’s the thing.The further down the line,the less chance of that happening because the power and skill of the emperors would decrease.

I'm trying to focus less on the personal ideals and drives of the ruling Emperor and more on the institutional and factional balance of power. The idea is to build up this Anhui/Henan-Fujian/Zhejiang clique within the state structures that is able to build up significant military and economic power and serve as a major (though not the only as there were many Muslim Court Eunuchs and Confucian Scholars) patron for promoting Islam. The fact that Lan Yu is the Imperial Tutor, and will probably have a large say in his successor, means that this faction is going to continue to exert influence over future Emperors for a while. It won't be until Biao's grandson or great-grandson that the Emperors start to openly embrace Islam (incidentally how does Qīngzhēn sound as an Era Name for a Muslim Emperor?).

I'm also thinking of having an alt Jingnan rebellion, possibly delayed by a few years in order to coincide with succession conflicts in Mongolia that end with the Ming, and Lan Yu in particular, allied with Öljei Temür Khan and Zhu Di allied with Örüg Temür Khan. In the aftermath the rebels are dispossessed and Lan Yu and his allies are rewarded with land and titles, particularly in the militarised northern frontiers, effectively making Lan Yu a de facto autonomous Prince and one of the most powerful men in China.

 

[Avrorrange]

I'm trying to focus less on the personal ideals and drives of the ruling Emperor and more on the institutional and factional balance of power. The idea is to build up this Anhui/Henan-Fujian/Zhejiang clique within the state structures that is able to build up significant military and economic power and serve as a major (though not the only as there were many Muslim Court Eunuchs and Confucian Scholars) patron for promoting Islam. The fact that Lan Yu is the Imperial Tutor, and will probably have a large say in his successor, means that this faction is going to continue to exert influence over future Emperors for a while. It won't be until Biao's grandson or great-grandson that the Emperors start to openly embrace Islam (incidentally how does Qīngzhēn sound as an Era Name for a Muslim Emperor?).

Building up factional support for Islam amongst cliques is a good idea, but using Lan Yu as a vehicle is a terrible idea. A lot of people hate the guy because he had no respect to authority and was generally abrasive towards others. Lan Yu's title of Imperial Tutor was actually just that. It's just a title. Very few Imperial Tutors actually taught the crown prince or the emperor after the Zhou Dynasty. It was usually a sinecure for very senior officials. Tianzhi Emperor's actual teacher Sun Chengzong for example, never received the title. The only Imperial Tutor that I could think of who taught an emperor/crown prince was the Grand Secretary Zhang Juzheng, and even he only received the title ten days before he died.

I'm also thinking of having an alt Jingnan rebellion, possibly delayed by a few years in order to coincide with succession conflicts in Mongolia that end with the Ming, and Lan Yu in particular, allied with Öljei Temür Khan and Zhu Di allied with Örüg Temür Khan. In the aftermath the rebels are dispossessed and Lan Yu and his allies are rewarded with land and titles, particularly in the militarised northern frontiers, effectively making Lan Yu a de facto autonomous Prince and one of the most powerful men in China.

There was essentially no need for Zhu Di to rebel if Zhu Biao was emperor. Zhu Di only rebelled because his nephew forced him to. A good number of Zhu Di's brothers were forced to commit suicide or dispossessed of their fiefs before he rebelled. Zhu Biao by contrast was by many accounts a kind and respected brother. Making Lan Yu a feudal lord would be even more implausible. As mentioned repeatedly, the guy was seen as a loose cannon by many people. Under the Chinese political system, no man outside of the Imperial family would have been made a prince/king unless said person is one of the powers behind the throne and is about the force the emperor to hand over the throne to him.Everyone from the princes to the Confucian officials would be plotting to eliminate him if this was the case.