PC: Longstreet/Jackson/Early for ANV corps commanders?

Some interesting ideas... how the following as a compromise?

Army of Northern Virginia - Lee
I Corps - Longstreet
II Corps - Stuart
III Corps - Hardee


Army of Tennessee - JE Johnston
IV Corps - Breckinridge
V Corps - Early
VI Corps - Buckner


Army of the Mississippi - Beauregard
VII Corps - Van Dorn
VIII Corps - Price
IX Corps - Kirby Smith

Thoughts?

Best,

probably as good as it gets for the South and at least for now Beauregard has the clout for an army... but who holds at Charleston, which is a major front at this point?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Would make sense, wouldn't it?

Why not make Polk senior chaplain of the army? That, at least, was a role for which he was qualified.

Would make sense, wouldn't it?

Interestingly enough, when I went through Cullum for BROS, I found a couple of loyal West Pointers who went into the clergy after the army, including one who joined the SJ and was on faculty at Holy Cross.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Pemberton, maybe?

probably as good as it gets for the South and at least for now Beauregard has the clout for an army... but who holds at Charleston, which is a major front at this point?

Pemberton, maybe?

Magruder, Holmes, and Huger were all still knocking around, IIRC.

Maybe GW Smith?

Best
 
Well, what were Beauregard's specific contributions to the defense of the harbor during the spring+summer of 1863? To me, the defensive side of a siege seems to be largely a matter of construction once you get past the garrison commanders. How well can the Charleston forts run on 'autopilot', or at least without the fourth/fifth highest ranking officer in the entire Confederacy to direct them? Maybe Magruder could handle it after he shows his stuff at Galveston?
 
U.S. Civil War with Friendly Fire turned off

Army of Northern Virginia - Lee
I Corps - Longstreet
II Corps - Jackson
III Corps - Stuart

Overall Western Command [Military Division of the Mississippi-esque]
- AS Johnston

Army of Tennessee - JE Johnston
IV Corps - Breckinridge
V Corps - Hardee
VI Corps - Buckner

Army of the Mississippi - Beauregard
VII Corps - Van Dorn
VIII Corps - Price
IX Corps - Kirby Smith

ASJ switches between the two western armies depending on circumstance and directs like Grant with the AotP, and leads joint offensives [probably aimed at Nashville; very speculative, since the circumstances that would lead to him not getting killed would probably reshape the war in the west to no small degree].

Summer 63, II Corps marches on Harrisburg, and with Jackson driving them and Hampton screening to the south, they stand a good chance of making it and bagging lots of goodies from the Union's major supply depot before having to concentrate in the Gettysburg area. If things don't go worse than OTL there, they can shift Longstreet's corps to the Army of the Tennessee to really beef it up for an offensive in late summer/early fall before the ground freezes solid.
 
Actually, if Jackson wasn't wounded, Stuart probably wouldn't get a chance to show off his Corps command ability, so it'd probably be Longstreet-Jackson-Ewell, with Stuart in the cavalry. Still presents a problem for 1863 cavalry operations with his sour relationships with Brig Gens Grumble Jones and Roberston.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
AS Johnston wasn't "friendly" fire, however...

U.S. Civil War with Friendly Fire turned off

Army of Northern Virginia - Lee
I Corps - Longstreet
II Corps - Jackson
III Corps - Stuart

Overall Western Command [Military Division of the Mississippi-esque]
- AS Johnston

Army of Tennessee - JE Johnston
IV Corps - Breckinridge
V Corps - Hardee
VI Corps - Buckner

Army of the Mississippi - Beauregard
VII Corps - Van Dorn
VIII Corps - Price
IX Corps - Kirby Smith

ASJ switches between the two western armies depending on circumstance and directs like Grant with the AotP, and leads joint offensives [probably aimed at Nashville; very speculative, since the circumstances that would lead to him not getting killed would probably reshape the war in the west to no small degree].

Summer 63, II Corps marches on Harrisburg, and with Jackson driving them and Hampton screening to the south, they stand a good chance of making it and bagging lots of goodies from the Union's major supply depot before having to concentrate in the Gettysburg area. If things don't go worse than OTL there, they can shift Longstreet's corps to the Army of the Tennessee to really beef it up for an offensive in late summer/early fall before the ground freezes solid.

AS Johnston wasn't "friendly" fire, however... other than that, pretty good line up; certainly better than the historical.

Regarding Harrisburg, however, I don't see it; the river is two miles wide, the banks/mudflats are bounded by bluffs and hills, and the equivalent of Couch's Department of the Susquehanna is going to be called together and be able to hold the river line no matter who's in charge for the southernors...

Best,
 
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The bullet went in the back of his knee, and he was seen to be ahead of his men; it's not outright confirmed, but there's a strong possibility ASJ was friendly fire.

Re: Harrisburg, there's a bluff on the south bank that's only thinly defended, and around the Camelback bridge the river's less than a mile wide; Fort Washington was poorly sited, and Fort Couch, built to protect it, was incomplete. A well led corps, or possibly even a division, could probably take it, and from there they can shell Harrisburg, though the city would likely surrender before that. IIRC, Ewell was just about to march on it when he got the order to concentrate at Gettysburg.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Okay, possibly; I'll give it to you...

The bullet went in the back of his knee, and he was seen to be ahead of his men; it's not outright confirmed, but there's a strong possibility ASJ was friendly fire.

Re: Harrisburg, there's a bluff on the south bank that's only thinly defended, and around the Camelback bridge the river's less than a mile wide; Fort Washington was poorly sited, and Fort Couch, built to protect it, was incomplete. A well led corps, or possibly even a division, could probably take it, and from there they can shell Harrisburg, though the city would likely surrender before that. IIRC, Ewell was just about to march on it when he got the order to concentrate at Gettysburg.

Okay, possibly; I'll give it to you...re Johnston. Call it a Mulligan.;)

The problem with approaching Harrisburg from the west is that Lee isn't going to be dragging siege artillery along, so even if he can clear the west bank, he's now facing US artillery being shipped in by rail, and a wide water obstacle he can't simply wish away.

Which even at the site of the Camelback Bridge (today's Market Street Bridge) its almost a mile from bank to bank, and crosses City Island, which would make for a great first line, supported by artillery and a second line on the east bank and the hills above that...

Basically, it involves two separate crossings, since City Island is right in the middle, so the assault force would have to disembark, drag their boats across the island, and reembark, and the east bank is backed by bluffs and hills ... it's quite an obstacle, actually, and militia troops are going to be able to stand and defend the crossings (as they did, historically).

Tactically, it looks a lot like Fredericksburg, actually, or Balls Bluff.

Best,
 
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They don't have to actually assault the city; they take the heights on the West bank, and they can shell the city with their field guns and just burn it to the ground. I don't think it'd come to that, though, if Jackson attacked in strength. They'd recognize the city could be destroyed no matter how strong its river defenses, so they leave the bridge intact and let II Corps resupply out of the Union depot and let them leave. Second option is better for Lee's army, but first still accomplishes the objective of bringing the war to a Union state capital.
 
Pemberton was commander at Charleston in 1862 but didn't get along well with the civilian leadership their which was why he was sent west in the first place.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Don't see Curtin surrendering the city, much less Couch

They don't have to actually assault the city; they take the heights on the West bank, and they can shell the city with their field guns and just burn it to the ground. I don't think it'd come to that, though, if Jackson attacked in strength. They'd recognize the city could be destroyed no matter how strong its river defenses, so they leave the bridge intact and let II Corps resupply out of the Union depot and let them leave. Second option is better for Lee's army, but first still accomplishes the objective of bringing the war to a Union state capital.

Don't see Curtin surrendering the City, much less Couch and WF Smith; and with the artillery in place historically (Smith's 1st Division had two batteries with 12 guns, by itself) and the presumed reinforcements coming in by rail from points southeast and northeast, seems open to question whether a rebel division's artillery could overmatch ...

Couch was an artillery man by training, and Smith an engineer; they may be a scratch team, but they're not a bad team.

Again, more than a little of a "Fredericksburg" sort of feel, and if Lee wants the city, he can try and take it, but I don't think it's going to be given to him; its the state capital and had more than 13,000 residents in 1860.

Best,
 
Leading some irregular cavalry on a scouting mission, Jenkins thought the city was vulnerable, and Ewell was getting ready to do it. The sooner II Corps gets up there, the more vulnerable it is. They might provide stiffer resistance than expected, but Jackson had the nerve to follow through on a risky plan, so it's certainly possible to imagine him putting the smoldering ruins of a state capital on the cover of everyone's Harpers Weekly.

Bragg pulled off the largest movement of troops by rail of the entire war when he shifted his base from Tupelo MS to Chattanooga TN; if things are quiet in JE Johnston's sector, have him spend the early summer fortifying the heights around the town, and shift Buckner or Hardee's corps to Vicksburg with ASJ to counter Grant once he cuts himself off from his supply lines. With Halleck as General in Chief, if Grant's risky move fails, he can really find himself in the doghouse.

If that works, and the AotP is as bloodied as OTL, shift Buckner/Hardee and Longstreet over to JEJ with ASJ and head for Nashville after blunting Rosencrans's attack on Chattanooga. If his army's still in good condition and Vicksburg isn't in dire straits, might also have Beauregard head for Tupelo or Corinth, and eventually Memphis.

Best case scenario, end of 1863: Confederates hold Nashville and Memphis, National Union/Republican governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania lose reelection. Union high command going into 1864 is Halleck for General in Chief, and Meade [unless replaced if Harrisburg falls], Rosencrans [ditto re: Nashville], Burnside, and Sherman for main army commanders.
 
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Mobile would probably need to be heavily fortified, at least until Corinth is recaptured; it was the vital juncture in Bragg's transfer of his command from Tupelo to Chattanooga, and Beauregard needs every man he can get if he's going to try to push Grant back into the Mississippi.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Yeah, this seems like the ghost of John C. Calhoun has come down...

Leading some irregular cavalry on a scouting mission, Jenkins thought the city was vulnerable, and Ewell was getting ready to do it. The sooner II Corps gets up there, the more vulnerable it is. They might provide stiffer resistance than expected, but Jackson had the nerve to follow through on a risky plan, so it's certainly possible to imagine him putting the smoldering ruins of a state capital on the cover of everyone's Harpers Weekly.

Bragg pulled off the largest movement of troops by rail of the entire war when he shifted his base from Tupelo MS to Chattanooga TN; if things are quiet in JE Johnston's sector, have him spend the early summer fortifying the heights around the town, and shift Buckner or Hardee's corps to Vicksburg with ASJ to counter Grant once he cuts himself off from his supply lines. With Halleck as General in Chief, if Grant's risky move fails, he can really find himself in the doghouse.

If that works, and the AotP is as bloodied as OTL, shift Buckner/Hardee and Longstreet over to JEJ with ASJ and head for Nashville after blunting Rosencrans's attack on Chattanooga. If his army's still in good condition and Vicksburg isn't in dire straits, might also have Beauregard head for Tupelo or Corinth, and eventually Memphis.

Best case scenario, end of 1863: Confederates hold Nashville and Memphis, National Union/Republican governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania lose reelection. Union high command going into 1864 is Halleck for General in Chief, and Meade [unless replaced if Harrisburg falls], Rosencrans [ditto re: Nashville], Burnside, and Sherman for main army commanders.

Yeah, this seems like the ghost of John C. Calhoun has come down...;)

Having a hard time seeing a cavalry brigade or even Ewell's corps by itself managing the crossing; a mile or more of water and mud, the island in the middle, and the bluffs and heights on the east side of the river as a defensive position?

Then the stuff in the west; this is the rebellion we're talking about. What was AS Johnston's son's comment?

His command was imperial in extent, and his powers and discretion as large as the theory of the Confederate Government permitted: he lacked nothing except men, munitions, and the means of obtaining them, while he had the right to ask for anything, and the State Executives had the power to withhold everything.


Given how the US commanders in the west (Halleck included, but Curtis, Pope, Grant, Buell, and Rosecrans) pretty much played Johnston et al like drums for much of 1862-63, seems unlikely.

Best,
 
They don't have to cross, just take the bluffs and shell the town from across the river. It will be impossible for Lincoln to claim the Union is winning the war when the capital of the second largest state is in flames. You put that on the cover of everyone's Harper's Weekly, they're scared, but not desperate and cornered.

Whatever the deficiencies of AJ's tactical mind, I think a lot of his problems lie more in execution and management. He gives orders for Nashville to be fortified as a fallback position from Fort Donnelson, but doesn't check to see that they're being followed. He shows up at Nashville and finds out the governor's ignored him, and the most important juncture north of Vicksburg is naked as a newborn baby. He draws up a damn fine plan for Shiloh (concentrate, surprise attack, central position, oblique attack, left wheel, fabulous stuff), but lets Beauregard execute it while he runs around as a glorified brigade commander and gets killed by his own men. Beauregard tries to pull a left wheel with most of the men in the center.

I don't think he has to be brilliant to throw a real monkey wrench in Grant's plans, though. What he and Beauregard have to do is concentrate forces
before Grant can defeat them piecemeal and force them into a siege they can't win. AJ and Beauregard with three corps I think make for a much tougher nut to crack than Pemberton and JJ with five divisions, even if they're completely average tacticians.
 
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