Yes, for the better part of the 16th century they'd be working on keeping the borders of the Old Aztec Empire, securing the more troublesome neighbors (Tarascans and Mayas), and keeping the Spanish from invading.
PC: King Cortes
- Thread starter John Fredrick Parker
- Start date
Yes, for the better part of the 16th century they'd be working on keeping the borders of the Old Aztec Empire, securing the more troublesome neighbors (Tarascans and Mayas), and keeping the Spanish from invading.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
While OTL Cortes did lead an expedition into (OTL) Honduras, so getting to Nicaragua is somewhat conceivable, I can't see why Cortesia would want to make it easier for Spanish ships to enter the Pacific. AAR, it didn't even happen OTL, when Spain would have had all the reason in the world to build it.
Not total wankage -- just expansionist enough to have a somewhat extensive Pacific coast, and maybe some adventurism that they later come to regret. We're talking about a country that would look like the southern half of Mexico OTL. (To give you a clearer idea -- since I can't do maps yet -- they'd be lucky to get as far north as the OTL cities of Mazatlan, Durango, or Ciudad Victoria.)
As far as Cortesian naval power in the Pacific, that's really nothing more than having enough ships to deal with the odd vessel that happens into the nations western waters, protect trading vessels on the initial phases of their Pacific journey (most ships wouldn't stray too far from the coast), and transport soldiers more effectively.
Challenging Spain's navy directly along Cortesia's east coast probably isn't such a good idea; land defenses would be a much smarter use of resources.
If a TL is done on this, including these details will certainly be important, I'll give you that.
But would it be good enough for Cortes? I mean, I think even he would understand that an invasion of China would be suicidal. But the Aztec Empire, for all its wealth and regional influence, was really very small. Once he had control of it, he would probably want more.
It all comes down to whether Cortes was the type to be driven mad with power, or whether he was ultimately shrewd and pragmatic. If the former, then he'll probably start expanding too soon, overextend his resources, and leave himself vulnerable to a Spanish takeover or a fragmented empire like Alexander's Macedonia. If the latter, then he'll take the time to consolidate his new country first, increase its real (as opposed to apparent) power . . . and probably then start expanding once he can afford to. But then it'll be a more measured expansion that will be sustainable by his descendants. Either way, I think "Cortesia" (and would he really call it that?) will get bigger.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
He would need to create a military that is not overly reliant on what extremely limited numbers of European men he had with him and with him splitting his dominion off from Spain, very few are bound to join him. I could see utilizing the Spanish soldiers in his disposal as members of his bodyguard as well as the basis of the officer corps manning the army which would be staffed by native Mesoamericans trained in the art of European warfare. Guns and cannons would be to be produced meaning training the natives to build factories for said weapons and horses need to be bred. I can see Cortes being the kind of man who after taking down the Aztec empire would want to expand his dominions to get more riches so he would have Nahautl serve as the de facto language of the Cortesian military and the court.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
This makes sense to me; truth be told, I'm more partial to the latter myself, with some caveats: essentially, in OTL, Cortes sent Cristobal de Olid to try to bring the Tascarans under his dominion. Olid's success was... debatable; the altercation ended with a treaty whose terms were somewhat unclear to both sides. In 1529, a new expedition was sent out against the nation, and it defeated them unconditionally; I think that's enough time for Cortesia to prepare ITTL as well.
But whether they are successful is another story; truth be told, I'm not too crazy about Cortesian wankage either (at least not too much).
Yes, it will; and yes, he would.
EDIT ADD:
For the military probably (though he'd need to expand translator programs -- Maliani could help with that), but the court would definitely be Spanish, for much the same reason that the country is called "Cortesia".
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Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Spanish could be the prestige language of the court but with most of his Europeans either handling the military affairs of his new empire or being busy trying to convert the native indigenous Americans into a somewhat nativized form of Roman Catholicism. Cortes' moves against Spain would make him technically a successor to Montezuma as tlatoani as well as his successors. I still say Nahautl would be the prestige language as he would have to hand out incentives to the native nobility into not overthrowing him from power and accept him as their rulers. There are very few Spaniards and a lot of natives plus Cortes' successors if I am correct with Malinche being considered a queen consort or sort would have lots of native blood. The empire's rulers are going to end up adopting Nahautl as the court language after a few generations of relative isolation from Europe.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
First, a nitpick -- IIANM, Malinche was a title primarily for Cortes, so called for his relationship to Maliani, who, somewhat confusingl, history has dubbed "La Malinche".
I mentioned Cortes taking the title "Malinche the First", but I'm starting to wonder if he might make "Malinche" itself into a supertitle, like "Ceasar" for the Romans.
During Cortes' life though, I imagine he'd maintain Spanish as language of the court and for official functions, among other reasons to give aura of authority with translators. That said -- I admit, I can see why Cortes' son might want to adopt Nahautl as the prestige language of the court after he inherits the realm.
OTOH, Cortes would have three decades of rule* -- in that time, Nahutl nobility may come to see the advantages of learning Spanish, and I also can see Malinche's supporters wanting have their children learn Spanish to advance their careers. In this scenario, Spanish may well survive as the court language.
* I assume nobody here would protest if Cortes here lived until 1550, three years longer than OTL?
I mentioned Cortes taking the title "Malinche the First", but I'm starting to wonder if he might make "Malinche" itself into a supertitle, like "Ceasar" for the Romans.
During Cortes' life though, I imagine he'd maintain Spanish as language of the court and for official functions, among other reasons to give aura of authority with translators. That said -- I admit, I can see why Cortes' son might want to adopt Nahautl as the prestige language of the court after he inherits the realm.
OTOH, Cortes would have three decades of rule* -- in that time, Nahutl nobility may come to see the advantages of learning Spanish, and I also can see Malinche's supporters wanting have their children learn Spanish to advance their careers. In this scenario, Spanish may well survive as the court language.
* I assume nobody here would protest if Cortes here lived until 1550, three years longer than OTL?
Well, IOTL, Spain feared that both Cortez and Pizarro could do this. In fact, Gonzalo Pizarro, one of (Francisco) Pizarro's brothers, did rebel against the King, killing Blasco Núñez Vela, the Vicerroy appointed by the King, and taking control of the whole country for a while. Had the King not being willing to negotiate, he might have had enough support to proclaim himself King of Peru around 1547, as some encouraged him to do.
The problem is, if Cortez declares himself King of Mexico first, the King might not authorize Pizarro's expedition at all.
Oh, there are definitely limits to how far he can go. With his limited resources, he can never make his domain as large as OTL New Spain/Mexico got. His successors could expand the borders a bit, but with the Spanish Empire opposing them rather than supporting them, it will stay a small country. I'm not proposing any kind of wank. But if he and his immediate successors played their cards right, they could absorb other Native states nearby and end up with a country larger than the Aztecs had, albeit still probably smaller than even modern-day OTL Mexico.
I had understood that Doña Marina was given the name La Malinche because "Malinche" was a Hispanicized approximation of her Nahuatl name. And I was just thinking today that if Cortes married her and made her his queen, then future generations of Cortesians might just adopt "La Malinche" as an affectionate nickname for whoever the queen consort may be at the time. Sort of like the American "First Lady".
A more important question is, would he marry her? That would give him a mestizo heir and ensure that future kings of the House of Cortes would have high percentages of Native blood. Would he want to do that to convince the Natives of the realm he had legitimacy? Or would he try to marry a European woman and give himself legitimacy to European eyes? Either one would be an important source of stability for his throne, but they're mutually exclusive and, the way I see it, either way would be risky.
Which brings to mind the question of the new Empire's faith. IOTL, there were Spanish armies, and dozens of Inquisitors, running around to enforce the Roman Catholic faith. But here, the natives have more power. If Cortes or his men were to try interfering with local traditions like polygamy, I could see rebellion.
So, might it be possible for polygamy to emerge in TTL Cortesia?
Valdemar II
Banned
A important element are that even if Cortes create his own kingdom, we will still see European immigration, we may even see more than in OTL, because Cortes will wish to ensure a domestic production base an domestic expertice.
A few thing I can't see him focusing on building a fleet, he has little need for it, rather I think he will focus on building up fortification and a European style army to secure his rule.
While his relationship with the Spanish are going to be cold in the start it will likely thraw, especially because Charles V have more than enough trouble in Europe to focus on a minor westen state which Spain control the trade to.
I honestly see little expansion, Cortes will have more than enough to do with securing his own rule.
A few thing I can't see him focusing on building a fleet, he has little need for it, rather I think he will focus on building up fortification and a European style army to secure his rule.
While his relationship with the Spanish are going to be cold in the start it will likely thraw, especially because Charles V have more than enough trouble in Europe to focus on a minor westen state which Spain control the trade to.
I honestly see little expansion, Cortes will have more than enough to do with securing his own rule.
I highly doubt it. This is the early 16th century, remember. The Reformation has only just gotten started, and Catholicism is still very much in charge. Pretty much everyone in the European world regarded polygamy as an abomination. Cortes would be excommunicated--which, as a Catholic, he would take seriously--and lose the support of the Vatican and all the crowned heads of Europe. This, of course, would nullify the reason for having made his principal wife a European in the first place.
And if his European wife is a princess, which is likely if his aim is to convince Europe that he's a legitimate European monarch, and then he takes additional wives, he will infuriate the country that she came from. It would be a diplomatic disaster and possibly lead to war.
I also suspect it would not impress the Natives much, either. They understood the difference between a principal wife and additional wives. And they considered only the children of the principal wife--in this case the European woman, remember--to be legitimate. They wouldn't take issue with his having multiple wives, but they would notice that the Native woman was relegated to a subordinate position, and they would understand the implications.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
An idea just smacked me across the forehead -- what if Cortes gets busy having a legitimate child and arranges him to marry a young European princess?
I can see him sailing to France* with his young Martin** at Francois' court, the young prince meeting young Madeleine (or Margaret -- I'm easy), while the Great Malinche and the Dauphin talk turkey.
*and yes, yes, that means he's going to have to reach some kind of accord with Charles, but that's not impossible
**who obviously would also have another Nahutl name, but likely wouldn't hear it until adulthood
I can see him sailing to France* with his young Martin** at Francois' court, the young prince meeting young Madeleine (or Margaret -- I'm easy), while the Great Malinche and the Dauphin talk turkey.
*and yes, yes, that means he's going to have to reach some kind of accord with Charles, but that's not impossible
**who obviously would also have another Nahutl name, but likely wouldn't hear it until adulthood
Valdemar II
Banned
An idea just smacked me across the forehead -- what if Cortes gets busy having a legitimate child and arranges him to marry a young European princess?
I can see him sailing to France* with his young Martin** at Francois' court, the young prince meeting young Madeleine (or Margaret -- I'm easy), while the Great Malinche and the Dauphin talk turkey.
*and yes, yes, that means he's going to have to reach some kind of accord with Charles, but that's not impossible
**who obviously would also have another Nahutl name, but likely wouldn't hear it until adulthood
I honestly see that as unlikely, a important aspect are that Cortes are not royalty he's just noble whom have couped himself to power in a far off land, at best I could see him marry into some French or German ducal family or a royal bastard, but the French royal family no chance at all for that. They wouldn't waste a princess on a far off lesser noble with a shaky claim to power.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I really doubt Cortes would be able to snag his son a European wife. I'm going to be safe and says he marries off to someone, a daughter of a member of the native nobility.
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
Does nobody here think France, Britain, or anyone else wouldn't see Cortesia as a valuable ally against Charles? Is it really that implausible?
Valdemar II
Banned
I think it's more likely that he marry him to one of the offspring of the other Spanish conquistadors than a native nobility. But there's a good chance that his dynasty will begin to look to Europe in the third generation. But still a major royal family are unlikely.
Does nobody here think France, Britain, or anyone else wouldn't see Cortesia as a valuable ally against Charles? Is it really that implausible?
The problem are that at this point Cortesia aren't a valuable ally against Spain, and Cortesia have very little interest in alienate Spain at this point. In case of war they risk the Spanish cut them off from Europe